[X] My Assistant

[Stormdrake]

Does the optional rule alllowing adepts to take a power point rather than a metamagic not apply to Mystic Adepts? Does the rule actually say Mystic Adepts can't use it? The reason I ask is that as the Mystic Adept is written their spellcasting/summoning abilities are just another power that they can put points into.

[James McMurray]

It's not defined, so you'll have to ask the GM.

[Tanegar]

The reason I ask is that as the Mystic Adept is written their spellcasting/summoning abilities are just another power that they can put points into.

How do you reach that conclusion? Reading the entry on mystic adepts on p. 195 of SR4A, it doesn't say anywhere that mystic adepts can spend power points to improve their mana-based abilities. They can spend Magic points to gain power points, which are then spent to purchase adept powers, but any Magic points so expended explicitly do not count toward their spellcasting/summoning abilities. I would say that mystic adepts can make use of the optional rule allowing them to gain power points at initiation, but those power points can only be used to improve adept powers or purchase new ones. Neither spellcasting nor conjuring is an adept power.

[HugeC]

I'd like to second what Tanegar said; had it all typed up but he got to it first. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif)

[Stormdrake]

I see were the problem is. Yes the book actually talks about splitting the magic score between spell casting and powers but the charcter generators availble treat it as a total point system rather then two different pools. However letting the Mystic Adept use the optional rule to add power points to the powers side still allows them to draw closer to regular spell slingers without totally ignoring the power side of the Mysatic Adept.

[James McMurray]

Mystic Adepts shouldn't be able to get close to regular casters IMO. Letting them go up one Magic twice as fast as a regular caster will break them wide open. that's just me though, maybe your GM is less concerned about balance. If so, stick it to 'im! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Stormdrake]

I am the GM, lol. I have a new player and he wanted to play a Mystic Adept and I was brushing up on the rules about them and the chargen we use from this site treats the magic as a point system where you can put points into spellcasting/summoning and other adept powers. I knew something was out of whack but could not put my fiinger on it so thought I would ask. Thanks all.

[Tanegar]

Mystic Adepts shouldn't be able to get close to regular casters IMO. Letting them go up one Magic twice as fast as a regular caster will break them wide open. that's just me though, maybe your GM is less concerned about balance. If so, stick it to 'im! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Mystic adepts can't improve their Magic any faster (or cheaper) than full magicians. Remember, a power point is not the same as a point of Magic. IMO, the possibility of gaining power points at initiation actually makes mystic adepts much more interesting, because it makes the choice more meaningful: as spellcasters, there are many more metamagic techniques that a mystic adept would consider valuable compared to a physical adept, and several more compared to a full magician (a mystic adept can take the adept-only metamagics). Sure, he can take a power point and improve his adept powers, but he's missing out on things like Centering, Shielding, Masking, etc. Also, don't forget that mystic adepts miss out on astral projection entirely, and if they want astral perception they have to purchase it as an adept power for a full power point.

[James McMurray]

I agree completely. The OP talked about magic being treated as another power for mystic adepts. That's what I was replying to. If you treat spellcasting as just another power and if you allow mystic adepts to get power points instead of metamagics, then you're opening up a huge wave of imbalance.

[Aria]

Would it be reasonable to allow an adept character to increase their magic attribute by 0.25 increments instead of having to buy a full point (which is expensive for a single hit)...that way they can increase a bit at a time and feel like they are progressing!?! It would still cost the same karma for the full point and you might say they have to continue buying the full point before spending karma on anything else...just a thought...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Would it be reasonable to allow an adept character to increase their magic attribute by 0.25 increments instead of having to buy a full point (which is expensive for a single hit)...that way they can increase a bit at a time and feel like they are progressing!?!

Which is different how from the normal method? Many people I game with assign incremental points until the thing they are buying is paid for and fully useable.

[HunterHerne]

And it would work like paying off awarded positive qualities does.

[Dakka Dakka]

I don't see how giving the mystic adept another "point of magic" to spellcasting creates a huge imbalance. All it gives the adept is a +1 DP on a DP that is (usually) a lot smaller than a normal magician. The Maximum Force is calculated bay the true full magic rating anyway, which does not change by this optional rule.

[Machiavelli]

Mystic adepts can't improve their Magic any faster (or cheaper) than full magicians. Remember, a power point is not the same as a point of Magic. IMO, the possibility of gaining power points at initiation actually makes mystic adepts much more interesting, because it makes the choice more meaningful: as spellcasters, there are many more metamagic techniques that a mystic adept would consider valuable compared to a physical adept, and several more compared to a full magician (a mystic adept can take the adept-only metamagics). Sure, he can take a power point and improve his adept powers, but he's missing out on things like Centering, Shielding, Masking, etc. Also, don't forget that mystic adepts miss out on astral projection entirely, and if they want astral perception they have to purchase it as an adept power for a full power point.

Aaahm....who is missing things like centering, shielding, masking? Mystic adepts have access to ALL metamagics. Especially masking is a metamagic available to EVERY awakened character-"class".

[Dakka Dakka]

Aaahm....who is missing things like centering, shielding, masking? Mystic adepts have access to ALL metamagics. Especially masking is a metamagic available to EVERY awakened character-"class".

What Tanegar wanted to say, was that if you buy an additional power point, thatinitiation cannot be used for other metamagic techniques. I don't think he tried to say that those techniques weren't available to Mystic Adepts.

[Mäx]

Aaahm....who is missing things like centering, shielding, masking?

The mystic adepts who takes a power point instead of a metamagic during initiation, quite obviously.

[Aerospider]

Would it be reasonable to allow an adept character to increase their magic attribute by 0.25 increments instead of having to buy a full point (which is expensive for a single hit)...that way they can increase a bit at a time and feel like they are progressing!?! It would still cost the same karma for the full point and you might say they have to continue buying the full point before spending karma on anything else...just a thought...

That's an interesting house rule and I don't see any real problems with it. If the added bookkeeping isn't an issue for anyone then go for it.

I think the player definitely must commit to completing the Magic increase before spending karma on advancing anything else (so things like bonding foci and learning spells are exempt) and for ALL intents and purposes the character's Magic rating is rounded down.

It's unlikely to come up, but you could hit an issue with burnout. I.e. if the character goes from 1 to 1.25 and then loses a whole point of Magic. Should the 0.25 keep him magically active? It goes quite definitely against the rules, but I'd probably allow it under artistic licence.

[Machiavelli]

The mystic adepts who takes a power point instead of a metamagic during initiation, quite obviously.

If it would have been "obvious" i wouldn´t have asked.

[Thanee]

The Maximum Force is calculated bay the true full magic rating anyway...

I don't believe that is correct.

Even if you ignore the FAQ (which is completely clear on this matter), the rulebook states: "Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the character one point to use with Magic-based skills." Determining the maximum Force surely is one part of using the skill (it's not only about the dice pool).

FAQ

Though mystic adepts must split their Magic between Magic-based skills and adept powers, it says that for all other purposes, including the limits of adept powers, the mystic adept uses his full Magic attribute. Does this mean that a mystic adept with Magic 6 who has allocated 2 points to Magic skills and 4 points to adept powers can cast Force 6 spells without flinching?

The Magic points allocated towards Magic-based skills counts for all aspects of those skills. This includes: Magic-linked skill tests (Summoning, Spellcasting, Enchanting, etc.), maximum spell Force, overcasting, etc.

For a mystic adept’s adept powers, only the points allocated towards adept powers apply. This includes powers that require Magic Tests like Attribute Boost, the maximum rating of leveled adept powers, etc.

For all other purposes—i.e., non-Magic-linked skills—the mystic adept’s full Magic attribute is used: pressing through astral barriers, initiation grade limit, Masking metamagic, being assensed, etc.

So for the example above, a mystic adept with Magic 6 with 2 points devoted to Magic skills and 4 points to adept powers, the maximum Force he can cast at is 4, and anything over Force 2 is Physical Drain. His adept powers are limited to rating 4 or lower.

Bye
Thanee

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't believe that is correct.

Even if you ignore the FAQ (which is completely clear on this matter), the rulebooks states that the every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the character one point to use with Magic-based skills. Determining the maximum Force surely is one part of using the skill (it's not only about the dice pool).

Bye
Thanee

Except that the FAQ directly contradicts the SR4A Book. The book indicates that the Full magic rating is used for caps, while the allocated rating is used for dice.

No worries though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

Even if you ignore the FAQ (which is completely clear on this matter), the rulebook states: "Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the character one point to use with Magic-based skills." Determining the maximum Force surely is one part of using the skill (it's not only about the dice pool).

I do in fact ignore the bogus FAQ. The rulebook says explicitly:

Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the character one point to use with Magic-based skills. For all other purposes, including the determination of the maximum level for adept powers, the character’s full Magic attribute is used.

Actually it is only about the dice pool. Maximum Force just as Maximum Adept Power Level falls under "for all other purposes".

[Thanee]

Except that the FAQ directly contradicts the SR4A Book.

Yes, I know. In fact, I had written it in the above post, but that part must have gone out with some edits I made. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The FAQ was mostly posted for those who might not know it (and the thread starter especially), not as an argument (could have made that a bit more clear, though, I guess (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ).

The book indicates that the Full magic rating is used for caps, while the allocated rating is used for dice.

That's not exactly what it says. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Full Magic rating is used for anything that is not "use with Magic-based skills" and "gaining Power Points".

e.g., the latter is surely a cap (PP = Magic) and not a dice pool, yet it is obviously limited.

Now, I'm quite aware of the ambiguity and vagueness here, but IMHO "use with Magic-based skills" is more than just the dice pool (as outlined above).

As in... I read it in the general sense as opposed to the very specialized sense.

Also, I think that Mystic Adepts would be way too powerful otherwise (I do ignore the part of the FAQ, which directly contradicts the rulebook, though, but otherwise, the FAQ is how it should be played IMHO; meant in a "balance sense" not a "rules law sense"). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Actually it is only about the dice pool.

Well, and where does it say so?

It is surely possible to read it that way (I am not denying that, I only say that to me it seems to be meant the other way), but it is hardly a fact.

Bye
Thanee

[Dakka Dakka]

Well, and where does it say so?

It says that the partial magic rating grants you dice for magic related skill use. Force is not part of the skill use. To cast a spell you use MAG+Spellcasting/Ritual Spellcasting regardless of the Force of the spell. As such the Maximum Force is part of "for all other purposes".

Also since Adept power levels are explicitly capped at the Full Magic Rating, why should Spell and Spirit Force be handled differently?

Lastly Mystic Adepts are described as less skilled in either discipline not less powerful. Force is only a measure of Power not of skill. Skill is determined by the dice pool and the number of adept powers, which are in fact reduced compared to a full Magician/Adept.

To the Balance aspect, do you really think a Mystic Adept with a 3/3 split would be even viable if you limited him to Force 3 (6 with overcasting)? It gets even worse if the character either has less than MAG 6 or allotted less than 3 to magic related skill use.
Mystic Adepts are an even worse karmasink than magicians and adepts alone. They should at least get something decent for their investment.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, I know. In fact, I had written it in the above post, but that part must have gone out with some edits I made. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The FAQ was mostly posted for those who might not know it (and the thread starter especially), not as an argument (could have made that a bit more clear, though, I guess (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ).

...

Also, I think that Mystic Adepts would be way too powerful otherwise (I do ignore the part of the FAQ, which directly contradicts the rulebook, though, but otherwise, the FAQ is how it should be played IMHO; meant in a "balance sense" not a "rules law sense"). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bye
Thanee

I agree that the intent is likely to use the split ratings, and that is how it is played at our table. However, the Mystic Adept would not be overpowered if using the Full Rating for Spell Force Caps. He is still at a dice penalty as compared with an equivalent Magic Rating Full Magician. We have played both ways, and the power differential between the two options was minimal in practice. Unless, of course, you are theory crafting to exagerate the differences, then it can become substantial. Of course, Overcast spells are not as common at our table as they are at some others, so that could also play an important part in the Power Differential.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Thanee]

It says that the partial magic rating grants you dice for magic related skill use.

It says "point" (refering to rating point) not "dice".

The example does say "dice", though, but it is just an example, not the rule. Going just by the example text, I would actually agree with your reading, but the actual rule text doesn't sound like that's all to me.

Force is not part of the skill use.

Is that so?

I look at it this way... when I see the opening words in the Magic chapter in SR4A (p. 177 "Magic Use) ...

"The use of magic largely revolves around the Magic-linked skills of the Sorcery and Conjuring skill groups, though Arcana and Enchanting are essential to round out the versatile magician."

... and then read on, seeing paragraphs suspiciously titled with Skill Names with references to the various sections in the chapter, that detail the whole process, e.g. ...

"SPELLCASTING
...
Using Spellcasting requires a complex action. For more information on spellcasting, see p. 182."

... then I really come to the conclusion, that what is described there is "using Spellcasting" (as in the Skill).

Also since Adept power levels are explicitly capped at the Full Magic Rating, why should Spell and Spirit Force be handled differently?

Why not? They are two completely and drastically different systems.

It makes a lot of sense to use different approaches for both.

To the Balance aspect, do you really think a Mystic Adept with a 3/3 split would be even viable if you limited him to Force 3 (6 with overcasting)?

Yes.

Though, noone forces you to go 3/3. 4/2 is likely the better choice, but it really depends on the specific character.

Mystic Adepts are an even worse karmasink than magicians and adepts alone. They should at least get something decent for their investment.

Oh, Mystic Adepts are very decent for sure.

Bye
Thanee