[X] My Assistant

[Thanee]

However, the Mystic Adept would not be overpowered if using the Full Rating for Spell Force Caps. He is still at a dice penalty as compared with an equivalent Magic Rating Full Magician.

A small difference, like 1-3 dice, depending on how much actual Adept they are.

The Force cap is the big limit for them (assuming it works that way, of course). That's where they actually give up some power compared to a full-fledged Magician.

Bye
Thanee

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

To the Balance aspect, do you really think a Mystic Adept with a 3/3 split would be even viable if you limited him to Force 3 (6 with overcasting)? It gets even worse if the character either has less than MAG 6 or allotted less than 3 to magic related skill use.
Mystic Adepts are an even worse karmasink than magicians and adepts alone. They should at least get something decent for their investment.

I have a Mystic Adept with a 3 Sorcery/2 Adept Split. He is QUITE effective. More effective, even, than the Pure Mages in the group with Magic Ratings of 6-8. Of course, where they went the Power Route, I went the Useful route. The character has over 30 spells, with 50 more waiting in the wings for me to pick up. So, Yes, a Mystic Adept is quite viable, even with a Half Split.

Mystic Adepts DO get something decent. They have access to ALL of the Metamagics in existence, as well as access to both Adept Powers and Spells.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A small difference, like 1-3 dice, depending on how much actual Adept they are.

The Force cap is the big limit for them (assuming it works that way, of course). That's where they actually give up some power compared to a full-fledged Magician.

Bye
Thanee

True, the dice difference tends to be very small, and can be made up in several ways. And yes, if you are Capping Force at Assigned points, rather than Attribute Rating, then the Overcasting levels are different, sometimes drastically so. Mage with a Magic of 5 has a Cap of 10, a Mystic Adept with assigned 3 Sorcery has a Cap of 6. But, realistically, the differences between 6 and 10 are usually very minimal. The big difference is that the Mage is taking stun for his Force 6 Spell, while the Mysad is taking Physical. But honestly, I have never seen it make that big of a difference in game play. As I said previously, Most of the Awakened at our table do not Overcast on a whim.

[Thanee]

The character has over 30 spells, with 50 more waiting in the wings for me to pick up.

That's a lot of spells. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's a lot of spells. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Bye
Thanee

Indeed it is... Great character to play. Specifically because he Can't just power through every obstacle with his spells. The character has to actually think about things. Besides, If I need a big explosion, there is Tech for that, that does not have to worry about OR. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[James McMurray]

If I ever get to play SR I'll probably make a mystic adept / Face, with magic to handle the odd situations and a gun/grenades to handle making things die. I made an NPC like that (though with no gun skills) and she turned out pretty well.

[Dakka Dakka]

I have a Mystic Adept with a 3 Sorcery/2 Adept Split. He is QUITE effective. More effective, even, than the Pure Mages in the group with Magic Ratings of 6-8. Of course, where they went the Power Route, I went the Useful route. The character has over 30 spells, with 50 more waiting in the wings for me to pick up. So, Yes, a Mystic Adept is quite viable, even with a Half Split.

What kind of spells and dice pools does the character have? Are there many reisisted spells in the list? As soon as the spell becomes resisted, a certain force is necessary to even get enough usable hits for a successful casting. Having to always overcast to affect drones is a pretty heavy restriction.

Mystic Adepts DO get something decent. They have access to ALL of the Metamagics in existence, as well as access to both Adept Powers and Spells.

Only after initating many times. I doubt many characters will have initiated more than say 4 times. Are you using the deducted rule of getting power points for 15 karma?

[Mäx]

Force is not part of the skill use.

Is that so?

Yes that is most definitely so.
What force you can cast spells at has nothing to do with your magical skills what so ever.

[James McMurray]

What kind of spells and dice pools does the character have? Are there many reisisted spells in the list? As soon as the spell becomes resisted, a certain force is necessary to even get enough usable hits for a successful casting. Having to always overcast to affect drones is a pretty heavy restriction.

I can't speak for that character, but if a full mage can soak the drain from a Force 5/6 spell, so can a mystic adept, since drain resistance doesn't care about your Magic. Once you're soaking it all reliably, it doesn't matter whether it's physical or stun.

Drones are easy to take out: buy a gun and some AV ammo (a sniper rifle can esily get DV 7 and AP -7). Unless they're rigged their defense is going to suck. If they are rigged, hide and let the rest of the group take care of them.

[Dakka Dakka]

I can't speak for that character, but if a full mage can soak the drain from a Force 5/6 spell, so can a mystic adept, since drain resistance doesn't care about your Magic. Once you're soaking it all reliably, it doesn't matter whether it's physical or stun.

I'm not talking about soaking, I'm talking about generating hits. Hits, not net hits, are limited by a spell's force. So to beat a drone's OR you need force 6+, as you need 1 net hit for a successful casting. The only way to go lower on the Force is to use Edge, which is a finite resource and you can only generate the extra hits with Edge dice.

Drones are easy to take out: buy a gun and some AV ammo (a sniper rifle can esily get DV 7 and AP -7). Unless they're rigged their defense is going to suck. If they are rigged, hide and let the rest of the group take care of them.

I'm not only talking about taking them out. Any spell manipulating a drone has to be Force 6+, unless you arbitrarily decide that in case of illusions you only need to beat the OR of the drone's sensors. I find this ruling pretty counter-intuitive, as magic normally can only affect wholes and not parts.

[Mäx]

I'm not talking about soaking, I'm talking about generating hits. Hits, not net hits, are limited by a spell's force. So to beat a drone's OR you need force 6+, as you need 1 net hit for a successful casting. The only way to go lower on the Force is to use Edge, which is a finite resource and you can only generate the extra hits with Edge dice.

I'm not only talking about taking them out. Any spell manipulating a drone has to be Force 6+, unless you arbitrarily decide that in case of illusions you only need to beat the OR of the drone's sensors. I find this ruling pretty counter-intuitive, as magic normally can only affect wholes and not parts.

Or you just use indirect combat spell against a drone, those don't care about OR.

[HunterHerne]

I'm not talking about soaking, I'm talking about generating hits. Hits, not net hits, are limited by a spell's force. So to beat a drone's OR you need force 6+, as you need 1 net hit for a successful casting. The only way to go lower on the Force is to use Edge, which is a finite resource and you can only generate the extra hits with Edge dice.

I'm not only talking about taking them out. Any spell manipulating a drone has to be Force 6+, unless you arbitrarily decide that in case of illusions you only need to beat the OR of the drone's sensors. I find this ruling pretty counter-intuitive, as magic normally can only affect wholes and not parts.

Maybe. But anyone relying on one trick should be shot anyway. The spells only help, the character should still have some actual skill.

Or you just use indirect combat spell against a drone, those don't care about OR.

This is true. Electricity helps a lot, even if it doesn't actually hurt.

[James McMurray]

I'm not talking about soaking, I'm talking about generating hits. Hits, not net hits, are limited by a spell's force. So to beat a drone's OR you need force 6+, as you need 1 net hit for a successful casting. The only way to go lower on the Force is to use Edge, which is a finite resource and you can only generate the extra hits with Edge dice.

I think you misunderstand. I am saying that if a magician can get the hits he needs without overcasting and reliably soak the drain, then the mystic adept can overcast, get the hits he needs, and reliably soak the drain. Yes, you sometimes need Force 6, but as long as your mysad has an effective Magic rating of 3, he can get Force 6 spells.

[Thanee]

So to beat a drone's OR you need force 6+.

If you judge the effectiveness of a Magic-based character by their ability to use one of the least effective methods to engage drones, then I fear you look at the whole topic from the wrong direction. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[LostProxy]

My group tried it both ways and there were a few things that became obvious.

1) When the MA can use his full magic as a limit for force he's essentially as good as the mage. 2-3 dice difference aside there wasn't much of a gap.

2) When the cap is limited to whatever magic he gave to his spell casting any spell that is an opposed test is almost always doomed to failure. Overcasting to get these to work for even the most basic spells adds up over time. This turned him into a liability and it got even worse when there was active counter spelling going on. For the sake of not having a headache we went back to using full magic as the limit.

All in all the MA was either too strong or not strong enough at spell casting. Counter spelling (especially with Way of the Adept) was fine but still it was disappointing when he couldn't even cast a manabolt worth mentioning. We've been thinking of a houserule that the MA picks 2 specific types of spells he can cast at full strength. Any other is penalized. We think this may fix the problem of them either being too good or not good enough. Or at least it seems to on paper. We haven't had a chance to use it.

[James McMurray]

Actually, drones start at 5 for SR4A, not 6. So Force 5 is fine.

Not much of a difference, but 3 dice is 3 dice (and it's probably the difference in magic between starting mysads and magicians' die pools).

[Dakka Dakka]

If you judge the effectiveness of a Magic-based character by their ability to use one of the least effective methods to engage drones, then I fear you look at the whole topic from the wrong direction. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So what do you do, if you do not want to be seen by a drone? Infiltration works, but unless you have lots of Karma your dice pool will not be that great. Improved Invisibility can help in that respect - if you beat the OR.
Trid Phantasm is a great spell against drones as well but also has to beat the OR.
Power Bolting the drone is indeed a bad idea.

@James McMurray: Their OR is 5+ which forms a Threshold of 5 but you need 1 net hit (i.e. hit above the threshold) to successfully cast a spell. Thus Force 6+

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What kind of spells and dice pools does the character have? Are there many reisisted spells in the list? As soon as the spell becomes resisted, a certain force is necessary to even get enough usable hits for a successful casting. Having to always overcast to affect drones is a pretty heavy restriction.

10 Dice for Manipulation Spells
6 Dice for any other spells.
Character has a Stacked Spellcasting Focus for Manipulation/Illusion Spells that he normally uses for His Ritual Sorcery Skill Tests as well.

The character has no Illusion or Combat Spells at all, as of yet...
A few resisted Spells, though not many, really.
I have a Great Spell for Drones... it is called a Firearm...

Only after initating many times. I doubt many characters will have initiated more than say 4 times. Are you using the deducted rule of getting power points for 15 karma?

No... You cannot buy a Power Point for 15 Karma at our table, though you can buy a Metamagic for 15 Karma if you like. Assuming that you have initiated in the past anyways. The charactrer is a Grade 3 initiate. Has Masking, Extended Masking, and Flexible Signature. Next initiion should net him the Metamagic of Cleansing.

All in all, a fun character indeed...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I can't speak for that character, but if a full mage can soak the drain from a Force 5/6 spell, so can a mystic adept, since drain resistance doesn't care about your Magic. Once you're soaking it all reliably, it doesn't matter whether it's physical or stun.

Yeah... Soak Pool is base 12 Dice, with +2 for Fetished Spells. Any Spell that has a Drain Code of +2 or greater, he learned as a Fetish Limited Spell. So, 12-14 Dice, no spell ever cast above a Force of 5, and Most cast at Force 3-4 (I do not leave Signatures behind, so no need to clean them after the fact).

Drones are easy to take out: buy a gun and some AV ammo (a sniper rifle can esily get DV 7 and AP -7). Unless they're rigged their defense is going to suck. If they are rigged, hide and let the rest of the group take care of them.

Indeed... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm not only talking about taking them out. Any spell manipulating a drone has to be Force 6+, unless you arbitrarily decide that in case of illusions you only need to beat the OR of the drone's sensors. I find this ruling pretty counter-intuitive, as magic normally can only affect wholes and not parts.

Sensors are almost always a Part of a Whole. And Illusion Spells do not generally attack the Drone itself, the Drone picks up what the Illusion is putting out, which is vastly different. Book says Sensors are OR 3. *Shrug* I have seen it go both ways in my time.

[Thanee]

We've been thinking of a houserule that the MA picks 2 specific types of spells he can cast at full strength. Any other is penalized.

Wouldn't this be a good solution to your problem?

Opposed spells are cast using full Magic. Others are limited to the allocated Magic.


For the record, I do not agree, that this is necessary. Mystic Adepts do not need to be able to cast opposed spells as good as any other Magician. That's their downside. If one wants a character with full casting capability, then one should play a full Magician. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

"But I can cast spells, so I must be able to solve every problem using spells." is not a valid argument to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[James McMurray]

For the record, I do not agree, that this is necessary. Mystic Adepts do not need to be able to cast opposed spells as good as any other Magician. That's their downside. If one wants a character with full casting capability, then one should play a full Magician. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

"But I can cast spells, so I must be able to solve every problem using spells." is not a valid argument to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

QFT

[Thanee]

Improved Invisibility can help in that respect - if you beat the OR.

Actually, F3 Improved Invisibility auto-beats every drone. They do not even get a resistance roll.

@James McMurray: Their OR is 5+ which forms a Threshold of 5 but you need 1 net hit (i.e. hit above the threshold) to successfully cast a spell. Thus Force 6+

Physical Illusions (at least) only need to meet the OR, not beat it.

Bye
Thanee

[James McMurray]

Actually, F3 Improved Invisibility auto-beats every drone. They do not even get a resistance roll.

Bye
Thanee

Not if you're treating the drone itself as the target. In that case the OR is 5+.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My group tried it both ways and there were a few things that became obvious.

1) When the MA can use his full magic as a limit for force he's essentially as good as the mage. 2-3 dice difference aside there wasn't much of a gap.

2) When the cap is limited to whatever magic he gave to his spell casting any spell that is an opposed test is almost always doomed to failure. Overcasting to get these to work for even the most basic spells adds up over time. This turned him into a liability and it got even worse when there was active counter spelling going on. For the sake of not having a headache we went back to using full magic as the limit.

All in all the MA was either too strong or not strong enough at spell casting. Counter spelling (especially with Way of the Adept) was fine but still it was disappointing when he couldn't even cast a manabolt worth mentioning. We've been thinking of a houserule that the MA picks 2 specific types of spells he can cast at full strength. Any other is penalized. We think this may fix the problem of them either being too good or not good enough. Or at least it seems to on paper. We haven't had a chance to use it.

We too have done it both ways...

For us, we decided to Stick with the Cap at Split Rating (at least for now). When it comes to Hit Caps ands Magic, and if you are not facing a Counterspell Monkey, you can generally get away with a Force 3 or 4 Spell to obtain your effects, since you will rarely run into someone with a Willpower greater than 5, and you should not be casting Body Resisted spells at anything other than a Human or Elf when you cast at Low Forces (Dwarves, Orks and Trolls tend to resist these much better). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I have only not gotten the requisite Net hit of 1 just a few times, unless there was a Counterspell mage/Spirit in the vicinity. Yes, It does happen, and with the poor result of 1 Net hit, many of the manipulation spells do very little. But they DO have an effect. It is all based upon the effect that you want for your mage, of course. If you want him to be the Mind Manipulating Mage from Hell (Black Magician Anyone?), then you are best served by a caster with a Higher Magic Attribute Cap (Though you will be noticed almost everytime that you cast a spell). If you prefer the Subtle route, well, you really do not need that High of a Magic Rating to be effective.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)