Counterspelling from Astral, RAW vs. Old Versions... Options

[Aria]

I'm pretty sure that by RAW a mage in astral space can't add counterspell D to targets of a spell on the physical plane?!?

I'm also reasonably sure that in previous versions of SR it was possible to intercept spells as the mana was channelled through the astral...

I'm considering a house rule for my Emerging games that allows (an NPC in this case) half counter spell D to be given across the astral divide as they 'astrally jam' the area against hostile spells.

Is this completely out of order / game balance disrupting? I know it runs the risk of mages staying remote from the action and just going in to counterspell / spirit attack so I thought I'd see if anyone has tried this or has strong feelings about how it would work/not work (after all DS is full of people with strong feelings (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

Thanks

[pbangarth]

I think it was a good move to limit a magician's sphere of Sorcery influence to the plane in which he is acting, astral or physical. Having said that, there are already direct or indirect means by which this limitation can be circumvented. Ritual Spellcasting and the Mana Static spell are two examples. But at least these require special knowledge or partners to put into effect.

[HunterHerne]

Also, there is the fact that projecting magicians can manifest, or appear on the physical. While they can't actually touch anything, I would allow a manifesting mage to cast (mana spells, at least) and counterspell (I'm not 100% sure whether the RAW already covers this, however), although I would allow enemy casters to target them with mana spells, as well as being an astral entity, similar to dual natured/perceiving characters.

[James McMurray]

Also, there is the fact that projecting magicians can manifest, or appear on the physical. While they can't actually touch anything, I would allow a manifesting mage to cast (mana spells, at least) and counterspell (I'm not 100% sure whether the RAW already covers this, however), although I would allow enemy casters to target them with mana spells, as well as being an astral entity, similar to dual natured/perceiving characters.

Warning: only allow this if your game is insanely magic heavy (i.e. there's a magician and/or spirits on both sides in every single firefight). A manifesting magician is immune to physical harm. Letting him attack others when they can't defend is a BAD idea.

The RAW already covers this, and gives an emphatic "no!"

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Warning: only allow this if your game is insanely magic heavy (i.e. there's a magician and/or spirits on both sides in every single firefight). A manifesting magician is immune to physical harm. Letting him attack others when they can't defend is a BAD idea.

The RAW already covers this, and gives an emphatic "no!"

Agreed... Just say NO to manifesting Mages casting Spells on the Physical. Your game will thank you for it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[HunterHerne]

Fair enough.

[Dakka Dakka]

Actually there is no restriction that the mage has to be on the same plane as the entity he tries to protect with counterspelling.

At least the description of Mana Static does not say it is active on both planes. That the spell crates background count however implies it. Make of it what you will. Single plane Mana Static is powerful enough IMHO

[LurkerOutThere]

I'm of two minds on this as i agree that there is nothing specifically disallowing a mage from counterspelling from the astral, but it does open a slippery slope of if they can counterspell across the astral void why can't they do other things. It also encourages mage/decker-in-the-van syndrome, which I tend to like to curtail. I think the best compromise is to allow dual natured beings and manifesting forms to do so, that way people are at least aware that the counter spelling will be present.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually there is no restriction that the mage has to be on the same plane as the entity he tries to protect with counterspelling.

At least the description of Mana Static does not say it is active on both planes. That the spell crates background count however implies it. Make of it what you will. Single plane Mana Static is powerful enough IMHO

If I remember correctly, by the rules, you must be on the same plane as your target to use Sorcery at all. Unfortunately for your argument, Counterspelling is a subset of Sorcery... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[TheOOB]

Actually there is no restriction that the mage has to be on the same plane as the entity he tries to protect with counterspelling.

At least the description of Mana Static does not say it is active on both planes. That the spell crates background count however implies it. Make of it what you will. Single plane Mana Static is powerful enough IMHO

Well, you have to be able to see your target to use counterspelling, and since you cannot see physical targets, only their aura/shadow. Mana Static, like every other spell, is active on the plane it's cast on. I don't recall a rule saying background count is identical on the physical and astral plane. You have to be careful about implying anything in RAW.

[LostProxy]

I would allow them to counter spell while projecting. I mean would that really upset any balance? Now you can scout and counter spell. Woah, that's a game breaker *sarcasm*

[toturi]

Well, you have to be able to see your target to use counterspelling, and since you cannot see physical targets, only their aura/shadow. Mana Static, like every other spell, is active on the plane it's cast on. I don't recall a rule saying background count is identical on the physical and astral plane. You have to be careful about implying anything in RAW.

Then by the same token, you cannot counterspell anyone in astral plane either since astral perception is not physical sight.

[Dakka Dakka]

If I remember correctly, by the rules, you must be on the same plane as your target to use Sorcery at all. Unfortunately for your argument, Counterspelling is a subset of Sorcery... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I only recall this for Spellcasting not the whole Sorcery Group. Care to show me where this is written?

Mana Static, like every other spell, is active on the plane it's cast on. I don't recall a rule saying background count is identical on the physical and astral plane. You have to be careful about implying anything in RAW.

Well spells should only work on the plane they are cast on, but according to Mana Static's description it creates Background Count. Unless Background count is purely astral, for which we have no indication, it affects both planes at least in terms of astral visibility.

[LurkerOutThere]

I would allow them to counter spell while projecting. I mean would that really upset any balance? Now you can scout and counter spell. Woah, that's a game breaker *sarcasm*

Actually potentially it does affect game balance, say you have a mage who focuses on summoning and counterspelling, they can effectively dump their physical stats and never leave home in the meat, that can affect balance.

[Aria]

Actually potentially it does affect game balance, say you have a mage who focuses on summoning and counterspelling, they can effectively dump their physical stats and never leave home in the meat, that can affect balance.

But if i limit it to half their counterspelling D then it adds a little bit of versatility but they'd still be better off in the meat?!? It's for an NPC's use mainly and is further confused by them being a dual natured were creature who is projecting in the same room as her body...but if I make it available to an NPC then the PCs need to have access to it too...?!?

[LostProxy]

Actually potentially it does affect game balance, say you have a mage who focuses on summoning and counterspelling, they can effectively dump their physical stats and never leave home in the meat, that can affect balance.

That's what I call a potential build, not a game breaker. A mage who focuses on summoning and counterspelling isn't any worse then one who focuses on the opposite. Actually it wouldn't make a lick of difference. Why? Because if they focus on counter spelling that means there is an enemy mage. If there is a mage that means the astrally projecting shadowrunner may find himself on his own against a mage manabolting the crap out of him. If he happened to have a lot of spirits on standby that doesn't change the fact that the enemy mage can most likely still call for back up and then you have districts 3-6 lending their spirit support to suppress an astral assault.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I only recall this for Spellcasting not the whole Sorcery Group. Care to show me where this is written?

Two Quotes for you...

A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician
can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no physical presence.

Sorcery is the art of shaping mana to create specific magical effects. It can be used to cast spells (Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting) as well as to protect against or eliminate them (Counterspelling)

In my opinion, Sorcery (Whether it be Casting a Normal Spell, a Ritual Spell, or protecting from such) is limited to the plane that it is used upon. The quotes above support that. If you can only cast upon a specific plane, then you can only protect upon a specific plane. Since a Projecting Magician can only affect the Astral, he may only Counterspell upon the Astral.

Seems pretty easy to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[James McMurray]

In my opinion, Sorcery (Whether it be Casting a Normal Spell, a Ritual Spell, or protecting from such) is limited to the plane that it is used upon. The quotes above support that. If you can only cast upon a specific plane, then you can only protect upon a specific plane. Since a Projecting Magician can only affect the Astral, he may only Counterspell upon the Astral.

Seems pretty easy to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

If that is the case, then why are they explicit about spellcasting and dispelling, but never mention being on the same plane for counterspelling? You're inferring something which doesn't exist because it supports your theory. The quotes you gave (plus the dispelling rules) actually support the opposite view.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If that is the case, then why are they explicit about spellcasting and dispelling, but never mention being on the same plane for counterspelling? You're inferring something which doesn't exist because it supports your theory. The quotes you gave (plus the dispelling rules) actually support the opposite view.

Becauase they do not have to be explicit. Actually, they do not support the opposite view. Sorcery does not cross boundries. Counterspelling is a part of Sorcery.

Here is a Direct Quote...

Dispelling Sustained Spells
Counterspelling also allows a magician to dispel a sustained or quickened spell, canceling its effect. The character must be on the same plane, must be able to perceive the spell she is targeting, and must use a Complex Action.

Exactly which part of "Must Be On The Same Plane" is unclear?

[Dakka Dakka]

This does not prove anything. It only shows that to dispel sustained spell you have to be on the same plane. It says nothing about whether the magician running interference has to be active on same plane as caster and target to give the target additional dice for his resistance.

As above the lack of this restriction for spell defense may be an omission or it may be the intention of the writers that this is not needed.

[James McMurray]

Becauase they do not have to be explicit. Actually, they do not support the opposite view. Sorcery does not cross boundries. Counterspelling is a part of Sorcery.

Here is a Direct Quote...


Exactly which part of "Must Be On The Same Plane" is unclear?

Ummm... youu do realize that you just quoted the dispelling section, not the counterspelling one, right? It has zero bearing on applying counterspelling dice to resistance rolls.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This does not prove anything. It only shows that to dispel sustained spell you have to be on the same plane. It says nothing about whether the magician running interference has to be active on same plane as caster and target to give the target additional dice for his resistance.

As above the lack of this restriction for spell defense may be an omission or it may be the intention of the writers that this is not needed.

But it Does...

Dispelling is active use of Counterspelling.
Counterspelling is active use of Sorcery.
You MUST be on the same plane to use Sorcery.

Why is that so hard to understand?

If you cannot be targeted by a Spell across the barrier, what makes you think that you can defend against a spell across the barrier? I mean really, that makes abolutely no sense whatsoever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[James McMurray]

But it Does...

Dispelling is active use of Counterspelling.
Counterspelling is active use of Sorcery.
You MUST be on the same plane to use Sorcery.

Why is that so hard to understand?

If you cannot be targeted by a Spell across the barrier, what makes you think that you can defend against a spell across the barrier? I mean really, that makes abolutely no sense whatsoever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Its easy to understand, and is a perfectly logic and well formed argument. Unfortunately the only thing saying that planar boundaries restrict all sorcery is you. No rule for that has been supplied.

Also, I'm not saying you can defend across the barrier. Its a gray area and I won't make a decision until I have to, at which point I'll rule in favor of the PCs unless they want it to go the other way. From then on out we'll follow that ruling unyil a real one is found or it turns out to be unbalancing.

My argument is against your lack of proof, not in favor of either side.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Its easy to understand, and is a perfectly logic and well formed argument. Unfortunately the only thing saying that planar boundaries restrict all sorcery is you. No rule for that has been supplied.

Also, I'm not saying you can defend across the barrier. Its a gray area and I won't make a decision until I have to, at which point I'll rule in favor of the PCs unless they want it to go the other way. From then on out we'll follow that ruling unyil a real one is found or it turns out to be unbalancing.

My argument is against your lack of proof, not in favor of either side.

Since you cannot target spells across a barrier, how can you target the spell across the barrier with Counterspelling? It really is as simple as that.

Lack of Explicit Evidence saying that Counterspelling does not Cross barriers does not mean that it does. In fact, it is heavily Implied that it does not. Why should it have to be explicit? We know that active Counterspelling (Dispelling) cannot cross barriers. Why, then, should Passive Counterspelling (Spell Defense) be more powerful, especially since there is no need to defend across the barrier because you cannot even be targeted across the barrier? The explanation is Simple; It isn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No worries, though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Oh, and a Quote here indicates What Sorcery is not capable of doing.

The Limits of Sorcery
Currently, sorcery obeys the following limitations, which form the base-line assumptions
according to which all spells in this and other Shadowrun books were created. Players and
gamemasters may choose to ignore or alter any or all of these assumptions, but doing so may
unbalance their game.

Sorcery Cannot Affect Anything to which the User Does Not Have a Magical Link.
Sorcery Cannot Alter the Fabric of the Space/Time Continuum.
Sorcery Cannot Divine the Future with any Certainty.
Sorcery Cannot Summon or Banish Spirits.
Sorcery Cannot Raise the Dead.
Sorcery Cannot Create Magical Items.
Sorcery Cannot Bridge the Gap between the Astral and Physical Planes.
Sorcery Cannot Create Complex Things.
Magic Is Not Intelligent.

These are the Rules by which Sorcery exists in Shadowrun currently. Note that the Rules do not say Spellcasting, they say Sorcery. Again, Counterspelling is a Subset of Sorcery.

[pbangarth]

I dunno, page 185 of SR4A, "A protected character must also stay within the magician’s line of sight in order for Counterspelling to be used", is good enough for me. Sight doesn't cross the astral/physical barrier.