[X] My Assistant

[Reg06]

I have a ton of Warhammer stuff, and am working on a Warhammer game, but I want to use the SR4 rules (because one is like peanut butter, and the other is like chocolate). In order to do that I of course need to make some changes. So I have a few questions;
- Is there a really good thread about low fantasy Shadowrun I can read? The PCs would have to be low point value to start with, and wouldn't have cyber ware, bioware, or much magic.
- Are there any houserules to the magic system to make the danger of using magic equal the rewards, that the forum agrees are well thought out and good? Magic in Warhammer is

[Fortinbras]

I have a ton of Warhammer stuff, and am working on a Warhammer game, but I want to use the SR4 rules (because one is like peanut butter, and the other is like chocolate).

One is like peanut butter and the other is like a moss-covered, three handled credenza.

Most of the SR4 rules were designed to incorporate balance between man, magic and machine. If you throw any of those, or in your case all of those, out then you are left with a lop-sided table.
What most people eventually end up doing is a mis-match of house rules and custom rules to fit their setting. I recommend this. If you don't like the Warhammer rules, create your own system from scratch using the basics of what your current batch of players like.

Zak Smith has some GREAT in house rules for Warhammer. I say copy and paste as needed, but Shadowrun is already a rules heavy system so I might stay away from it if you aren't using the setting.

[Reg06]

Most of the SR4 rules were designed to incorporate balance between man, magic and machine. If you throw any of those, or in your case all of those, out then you are left with a lop-sided table.

How is ending up with a lop-sided table any different than the current state of Shadowrun? I'm not new to SR4, I know the state of balance.

A Warhammer game of SR4 would end up running alot like a street level game of Shadowrun. I was curious if a) any posters had readily available links to high threat magic (which I know there have been many threads about), and b) any posters had links to threads about street level, low tech availability games.

[Kyrel]

Reg06. Let me try and wrap my head around what it is you are trying to do here...You want to play a game of Warhammer using Shadowrun rules!!!????

First of all, two questions. Are we talking Warhammer Fantasy or Warhammer 40K, and are you looking to play a full scale engagement between two armies, as in both Fantasy and 40K? Or are you in reality looking for a lower scale engagement set in the Warhammer World, but which would in reality be closer to either Mordheim, Necromunda, Inquisitor, or Dark Heresy? All of these games take place in either the Warhammer Fantasy or 40K setting, and are better suited for engagements involving a limited number of individuals.

Second of all, if you are seriously looking to play an army level game using the rules for Shadowrun!!!! I wish you the best of luck mate. I think I'd dedicate most of the summer to a good 2500 pts. game of Warhammer Fantasy/40K, if I were to play it our using the regular Shadowrun rules...

As for the magic part of what you ask, its rather hard to compare the magic of Shadowrun with that of any of the Warhammer products from Games Workshop. But I suppose one way to bring SR magic closer to Warhammer magic/psykers could be to remove Drain, but in stead let a failure/Glitch on the casting rolls result in either something akin to a Miscast from Warhammer Fantasy, or an attack from a Daemon, akin to what might happen to a Psyker in the 40K setting. In either situation the Drain mechanic could be used, in which case I'd suggest simply counting all "miscasts" as "Overcasting", and running the Drain at the full Force +/- modifiers for the spell, rather than Force*0,5 +/- modifiers. That would increase the lethality of screwing up a spell, but as it would only happen on either a failed casting roll, or a Glitch/Botch, then it should also happen more rarely.

Anyway, I'm a little unsure about what it is you are looking to do, so it's a little hard to comment. If you are looking for a game of 40K with more detailed rules and different stats for different weapons etc, then I'd recommend that you try and find a set of rules for the 2nd ed. 40K, or perhaps even the old Rogue Trader edition (40K 1st ed.). If you want more rules, details, and equipment stats, then I believe that you might find both of these games to your liking. Personally I'd recommend 2nd ed. though, but that's down to personal preference, so YMMV...

/Kyrel

[Bigity]

I always liked the 1st/2nd edition rules of Warhammer Fantasy RPG. Or are you talking about the tabletop wargame rules?

[Mayhem_2006]

Reg06. Let me try and wrap my head around what it is you are trying to do here...You want to play a game of Warhammer using Shadowrun rules!!!????

First of all, two questions. Are we talking Warhammer Fantasy or Warhammer 40K, and are you looking to play a full scale engagement between two armies, as in both Fantasy and 40K? O

One assumes that he is talking about the Warhammer RPG, rather than a tabletop battle.

****

Still seems odd, though. Most of the SR rules deal with being superhuman in some way or other. Wheras a character in WFRP is about as far from superhuman as you can get.

Seems like it would be a lot more practical to just modify the WFRP rules rather than toss them entirely. The exception, perhaps, is the random generation but that can easily be masde less random or made a free choice. In addition, if you don't like career schemes, just give a free choice of advancements as long as an IC tutor is available.


****

EDIT: Unless what you actually have is the 3rd ed rules, which I tend not to take into account as I pretend they don't exist. If that's what you have, seek out a 2nd hand copy of 2nd ed...

[hermit]

Converting SR4 to Warhammer 40K would be a lot easier than converting SR4 to WHF, not least because, let's face it, SR4's close combat system sucks, and close combat is a lot of what you are going to be doing in a WHFish setting.

[Kyrel]

One assumes that he is talking about the Warhammer RPG, rather than a tabletop battle.

I hope you're right about that *LOL* Have to admit that I forgot about that game, when I posted last night. But then I've never tried, let alone read the rules for the Warhammer Roleplaying Game, so that's probably why I forgot about them. Personally I'd find it a lot more sensible if the OP is looking to use SR rules in the 40K setting though. They might actually work resonably well for a variant game of either Necromunda or Inquisitor.


/Kyrel

[hermit]

Or Dark Heresy.

[Fortinbras]

How is ending up with a lop-sided table any different than the current state of Shadowrun? I'm not new to SR4, I know the state of balance.

A Warhammer game of SR4 would end up running alot like a street level game of Shadowrun. I was curious if a) any posters had readily available links to high threat magic (which I know there have been many threads about), and b) any posters had links to threads about street level, low tech availability games.

If you think Shadowrun is such a terrible, horrible, unbalanced system; why are you so eager to use it for Warhammer?

If your search-fu is failing you, you'll find most high threat magic threads boil down to higher damage, less drain. Most Low tech thread boil down to increase costs. Most "How do I convert Shadowrun to X" threads boil down to "Don't!"

[TheOOB]

Shadowrun is a system designed for a specific universe and style of gameplay. It does the kinds of games it's designed for well, and is poor at other kinds of games. You're trying to use a screwdriver to saw a board in half, it can be done, but it's long, messy, and you might break either the board or the driver.

Most game systems tend to be designed for a specific style of game, and are poor outside of it. If you don't like one system, play another, but don't make a system what it's not.

[hermit]

If you think Shadowrun is such a terrible, horrible, unbalanced system; why are you so eager to use it for Warhammer?

If WHFRP is anywhere near like Dark Heresy: Because that's even worse.

[Bigity]

It's not. Well, I have no idea about the current edition, it's more like a board game or something just from looking at reviews

[hermit]

Can't say myself because I only once ever played WHFRP and that's, like, 15 years ago.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Converting SR4 to Warhammer 40K would be a lot easier than converting SR4 to WHF, not least because, let's face it, SR4's close combat system sucks, and close combat is a lot of what you are going to be doing in a WHFish setting.

And WHY does SR4A's Close Combat System Suck, exactly? Just curious on your perspective, because I have had absolutely no problems with it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Fortinbras]

NO! No TJ v. hermit threads.
Your avatars are exactly the same, so to the rest of us, it just looks like someone arguing with themselves.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

NO! No TJ v. hermit threads.
Your avatars are exactly the same, so to the rest of us, it just looks like someone arguing with themselves.

Heh... No worries... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Besides, have you never witnessed Twins involved in a Discussion before? it is quite entertaining. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[hermit]

And WHY does SR4A's Close Combat System Suck, exactly? Just curious on your perspective, because I have had absolutely no problems with it.

It's martial arts are more useful in shooting people than karate chopping, and using qualities to beef one single skill instead of several skills is bizarre at best, breaks with the flow of the system even more than the clusterfuck that is the Matrix rules, and makes an MA-focused character - aside from all the punishment he receives in the setting - prohibitively expensive.

Also, it's a very abstract system, which is fine in a gun-focussed game like SR where martial arts are an afterthought in most combat situations, but in a game where martial arts are paramount and ranged weapons are an afterthought, it's just too abstract and unbalanced to simulate all you need to simulate in WHF properly.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's martial arts are more useful in shooting people than karate chopping, and using qualities to beef one single skill instead of several skills is bizarre at best, breaks with the flow of the system even more than the clusterfuck that is the Matrix rules, and makes an MA-focused character - aside from all the punishment he receives in the setting - prohibitively expensive.

Also, it's a very abstract system, which is fine in a gun-focussed game like SR where martial arts are an afterthought in most combat situations, but in a game where martial arts are paramount and ranged weapons are an afterthought, it's just too abstract and unbalanced to simulate all you need to simulate in WHF properly.

Abstract is good, though. And there is a reason that there is a GM to adjudicate. If someone tries stupid interpretations with martial arts, the GM should stomp them for it. As for Melee Characters being prohibitively expensive as compared to Ranged combatants in Shadowrun, well, they should be. Guns Trump Swords every time.

Don't know much about WH40K, but WHF is not much different than any other fantasy environment where Melee trumps Ranged. I am currently playing a Shadowrun rules based Wheel of Time game, and the Close Combat flows incredibly well. Better, in fact, than Shadowrun, because there are very few Ranged weapon concerns. Maybe we have just had very different experiences in this regard (as Yerameyahu would likely point out).

No worries... I was just curious as to your reasons... Thanks for the info. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[hermit]

Abstract is good, though.

Why? I'm also just curious, because I think especially in a fantasy system where you want epic swordplay, a little more detail would be nice. In SR4, nearly every hit will be a kill, unless you give all weapons really low base damage.

As for Melee Characters being prohibitively expensive as compared to Ranged combatants in Shadowrun, well, they should be. Guns Trump Swords every time.

Bayonet charges and fighting in close quarters aside, that's okay in Shadowrun where guns SHOULD trump swords. In a system like 40K, "guns trump swords" is just totally against the system's spirit and would totally break the game.

And in 40K, sword and gun are nearly equally useful (it has, among other things, jetpacks), and it really depends what you specialise on. DH manages that reasonably okay, actually, if you can live with it's general "use attribute and then add a shit-to of boni and mali according to 17 tables distributed voer 9 books to shoot an unarmed, scared Tau at point blank" philosophy.

Maybe we have just had very different experiences in this regard

Might well be. It's pretty frustrating to try and build a martial arts specialist Adept in SR4, though.

[Grinder]

and makes an MA-focused character - aside from all the punishment he receives in the setting - prohibitively expensive.

A MA-focused character would be expensive if he would have to learn several skills for different martial arts styles as well, doesn't he? Much like a ranged combat expert needs to bring up several combat skills (automatics, pistols etc.).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Why? I'm also just curious, because I think especially in a fantasy system where you want epic swordplay, a little more detail would be nice. In SR4, nearly every hit will be a kill, unless you give all weapons really low base damage.

For me, it is all about the little fluff details (the descriptives), though, not the mecahnics. I agree that if you want a less deadly style of play, SR4's mechanics are not likely what you are wanting to use. But I like them; I like a deadly Melee combat. Swords and axes kill people in a single hit. That makes the fray something to be avoided uinless it is absolutely necessary. Which, in my opinion, is a good thing.

Bayonet charges and fighting in close quarters aside, that's okay in Shadowrun where guns SHOULD trump swords. In a system like 40K, "guns trump swords" is just totally against the system's spirit and would totally break the game.

And in 40K, sword and gun are nearly equally useful (it has, among other things, jetpacks), and it really depends what you specialise on. DH manages that reasonably okay, actually, if you can live with it's general "use attribute and then add a shit-to of boni and mali according to 17 tables distributed voer 9 books to shoot an unarmed, scared Tau at point blank" philosophy.

In WH40K, that may well be. I have never played it, so I have no frame of reference to place it against. SOunds a lot like Rolemaster/Spacemaster though.

Might well be. It's pretty frustrating to try and build a martial arts specialist Adept in SR4, though.

I have had some good experience in this area, and yes, it can be a bit frustrating. But, when you do it well, the Martial Arts Adept is hard to beat.

[Reg06]

If you think Shadowrun is such a terrible, horrible, unbalanced system; why are you so eager to use it for Warhammer?

Because I really like SR4. I like the mechanics, I like character building, I like advancement.

Still seems odd, though. Most of the SR rules deal with being superhuman in some way or other. Wheras a character in WFRP is about as far from superhuman as you can get.

In WFRP sure, the PCs might be chumps, but in Warhammer there are great heroes everywhere. Shadowrun does a really good job of making weak characters, and super strong characters.

Converting SR4 to Warhammer 40K would be a lot easier than converting SR4 to WHF, not least because, let's face it, SR4's close combat system sucks, and close combat is a lot of what you are going to be doing in a WHFish setting.

I haven't had that experience at all. I like the close combat system in SR4 alot, as do any of my potential players.

If your search-fu is failing you, you'll find most high threat magic threads boil down to higher damage, less drain. Most Low tech thread boil down to increase costs. Most "How do I convert Shadowrun to X" threads boil down to "Don't!"

By high threat magic I meant threatening to the caster. In Warhammer a miscast can easily spell the death of the wizard.
I come from the D&D forums, which are extremely well organized and alot of effort is spent on making forum information readily accessible and useful (e.g. each class has a guide written by posters). If there isn't that sort of thing here, or any general consensus on what the best house rules for dangerous magic is, I will go back to what I was doing in the first place (which was reading through old posts).

For me, it is all about the little fluff details (the descriptives), though, not the mecahnics. I agree that if you want a less deadly style of play, SR4's mechanics are not likely what you are wanting to use. But I like them; I like a deadly Melee combat. Swords and axes kill people in a single hit. That makes the fray something to be avoided uinless it is absolutely necessary. Which, in my opinion, is a good thing.

The big thing that attracts me to SR4 is that it isn't hard to put somebody on the ground. Warhammer is about smashing face, and the combat should be fast and painful.

[hermit]

A MA-focused character would be expensive if he would have to learn several skills for different martial arts styles as well, doesn't he? Much like a ranged combat expert needs to bring up several combat skills (automatics, pistols etc.).

Not as much.

Firearms at 4 is 40 BP at chargen, and enables you to use any and all firearms. Any given MA is the skill at 4 (12 BP), plus 15 (for 3 of 4 advantages), plus 30 for techniques, makes 57 BP for a character who is a much less versatile fighter than the firearms expert for 40 BP.

And if you want to build Karate Chop Washington, expect to spend around 100 BP for the MA alone.

For me, it is all about the little fluff details (the descriptives), though, not the mecahnics. I agree that if you want a less deadly style of play, SR4's mechanics are not likely what you are wanting to use. But I like them; I like a deadly Melee combat. Swords and axes kill people in a single hit. That makes the fray something to be avoided uinless it is absolutely necessary. Which, in my opinion, is a good thing.

Well, whatever floats your boat, but I think the combat mechanics should reflect the kind of world and style the game wants to present. Dark Heresy is heavy on gore, shadowrun is about the deadliest system this side of Innsmouth, CoC's combat mechanics are vestigial because whatever you fight will destroy you via insanity anyway, and Storyteller goes nearly purely by plot necessities. WHF is high fantasy, and that includes long, drawn out parry and dodge heavy swordfights.

[Epicedion]

Actually if you take "Warhammer" and apply it to anything, you should expect character lives to be brutal and short. There's not much in the way of long drawn-out anything in those games.

Converting SR to any fantasy setting is easy. You just dump the existing ranged and melee skills, replace them with approximately the same number of ranged and melee skills with more focus on melee ('one-handed swords' and 'axes' and so on), and rename Pilot Ground Vehicle to Pilot Ground Horse and you're golden.

For the most part, magic items can be built out of adept powers. You can use the Power Point costs to put a natural limit on the amount of magic crap one person can be using at any given time. You should also separate the Weapon Focus from the magician, and allow anyone to use them (use karma to bond or not, whichever you like). You can also create what is effectively an Armor Focus, using essentially the same rules as a weapon focus. Each rating point can give an extra die to roll whenever armor applies.

From there it's very Warhammer-y to include stuff like Immunity to Normal Weapons on powerful magic items, and I'm sure there are other good powers you could come up with some way to bond to different items to produce some over-the-top fantasy effects.

Beyond that, you could get into the WHFB fluff as to what kinds of spells different wizards can actually learn, using that to limit wizards, based on the different WHFB magic schools. Spells like Stunball and Stunbolt aren't really transferable, but Manabolt (amounting to any of the plethora of magic missiles in the game) kind of is. Elemental spells are very popular. Also consider that you can add in all sorts of spells that are expressly forbidden in Shadowrun (teleport, etc). It'd be pretty simple to make up a few spell lists for the different schools.

boni

Ahahaha boni.