Balanced Spirits, Making OP spirits more equal? Options

[Ascalaphus]

Often people mention that they consider certain spirits unbalanced, particularly Task and Guardian get named often. Voodoo is often called a munchkin tradition because it's got so many powerful spirits, and Possession too. I rather like the idea of making a mage with only the "humanoid" spirits (Guidance, Guardian, Task, Man and I guess Beast), but that seems to be rather on the OP side according to some.

1) So what is a good baseline spirit, and which spirits are too powerful (or weak), and why?

2) How could this be fixed, so that spirits are more equal to each other in power?

[Badmoodguy88]

It would be a mess to balance the spirits with out making them to much all the same.

Guidance has some powers no other spirit has. Task has exploitation of its cool skills power. Guardian spirit is probably the best combat spirit. Spirit of man has Innate Spell, which is also nice. With Voodoo the only powers you don't have access to is Venom, and that power really is not that cool.

It would be nice if the other possession traditions were equally optimal. A compromise might be to let new traditions or variations of traditions to use whatever spirit load out people want. Better to have people play what they want than to need to compromise, between a character they would like to play and what they think is the most powerful, because to many people would chose the uninteresting powerful character. You can barely come up with a more powerful tradition than voodoo anyway.

The only downside to voodoo I can think of is that I imagine it is more common than some of the traditions. Easy to find people to team up with but also back ground count aspected to your domain has a lot of people who it buffs instead of hinders.

[Makki]

Guardian are strong, because they can use Automatic weapons and get beyond human attributes while being hard to kill.
Task spirits are like skillwires, as you can give them stuff like Running, Lockpicking, Parachuting, whenever you need it, and than let the spirit possess you.
SofM are strong because they can cast your spells, so you don't suffer sustaining penalties, however, their dice pool is usually smaller than yours, so I think their fine.
Some think Guidance Diving power is strong, but the dice pool is limited...

The first two mostly cause balancing problems with possession traditions. A solution would be, to let them only get skills, that are conform with the Tradition. GM and player should make a list at chargen, what is acceptable. A voodoo task spirit with Automotive Mechanic fells somewhat wrong to me as they totally lack the technological knowledge.

Another balancing house rule would be to cap attributes of the combined dual entity at the vessel's augmented max. So far rules don't talk about this, only the FAQ does and says otherwise.

[redwulf25]

The first two mostly cause balancing problems with possession traditions. A solution would be, to let them only get skills, that are conform with the Tradition. GM and player should make a list at chargen, what is acceptable. A voodoo task spirit with Automotive Mechanic fells somewhat wrong to me as they totally lack the technological knowledge.

Well, what is a Task spirit to a Voodoo practitioner but a type of Loa? Some Loa used to be people so why not one who knows how to fix cars.

[Ascalaphus]

Given the amount of caveats and leeway for the GM to be vague, I don't think that makes guidance spirits overpowered - you knew right when you selected that Divination exhorts the GM not to give more or less than he deems good for the story. In other words, it's very useful when the GM is frustrated because you don't seem to get the clues he wanted you to find, but it's not a plot shortcut.

Guardian spirits are pretty powerful, I guess; (Force x 2)+2 dice to hit with firearms is good, but not stellar - capped at 2IPs, no smartlink, and only terribly powerful if you pump into high Force. But it's pretty powerful for a spirit, yeah. Maybe it makes sense to cap their skills at 6 just like for regular characters? It's not much, but it does slow them down a bit.

Task spirits - I'd consider the same skill max (6), but unless you're using Possession, they don't seem so terribly powerful...

So is Possession really the problem with certain spirits being more powerful than others, or is it those skills?

[Irion]

Some quick thoughts about this matter:
1.)Should spirits have counterspelling?
For my part I think all spirits should have counterspelling, in order to prevent the much too easy stunbolt approach.
2.)Should spirits have FORCE = Edge?
No, I do not hink this was a good idea. First of all spirits get quite resistant against oppressive fire (close to the point they can actually ignore it).
So half edge would be quite good.
3.) Should spirits spend Edge if summoned or bouned?
Yes, I think there should be a chance they do. To crunch it in a rule:
Role a W6.
Summoning: If smaller than Force-1 the spirit uses Edge
Binding: If smaller than Force the spirit uses Edge.
If the player abused spirits, the GM may change the figuers to appropriate value.
4) To banish a spirit you only need net hits= unused sevices and you only need to resist half the drain. Spirits never spend edge against beeing banished. Since everyone like to get home. (With free spirit it is not that easy)


If you use those three points, spirits stay quite balanced.

[Tanegar]

Maybe it makes sense to cap their skills at 6 just like for regular characters? It's not much, but it does slow them down a bit.

Task spirits - I'd consider the same skill max (6), but unless you're using Possession, they don't seem so terribly powerful...

So is Possession really the problem with certain spirits being more powerful than others, or is it those skills?

How often do you really see spirits bigger than Force 6?

[Ascalaphus]

How often do you really see spirits bigger than Force 6?

I don't, but other people here seem to think those are eminently feasible for PCs to summon and bind. I've crunched the numbers on them once, I think I concluded that F>6 had a significant risk of killing you, if the spirit got a bit above-average while resisting the Binding.

[Summerstorm]

All the time. Force 6 is nothing to a perfect caster.

I would say my problem is with:

1. Higher skills than usual metahumans. We are lead to believe 7 is the highest anyone could ever get. That should be true for spirits as well. Including Edge 7. Stop the madness with skill=force. Make is lower, maybe 2/3 Force and cap it. (Or UNCAP it for all other creatures in existance)

2. Magical Guard. Somehow all the later spirits got it, but none of the usual ones. I am for giving it to every spirit, or none. That ability is MASSIVE.

3. The damn future-seeing of Guidence spirits. While thematic and cool, it essentially doubles as a metamagic power, and is just too accessible. (My mage consultates them pretty much before DOING ANYTHING - and i am pretty much forced to say what would happen to her if the timestream keeps going. I can be vague and such, sure... but come on... it rolls the damn 5 successes, i have to spill it *g*)

[Irion]

Binding Force 6 and higher is mostly a very bad idea. First, it takes around 7 hours do do so.
Summoning Force 6 and higher is possible.
Summoning Force 6:
Drain 0-12. (Avarage 4)
Hits needed (avarage): 3.
Possible I say. Binding is not so easy.

[Summerstorm]

Eh, depends. For a usual, common, average mage: Surely a problem: Physical drain, low dice pools hard enough to summon a force 6, BINDING? No way.

Problem is that the system and the world encouraged extreme specialization and hyper min-maxing. You WILL have a world-class mage somehow. (Well, unless dicouraged from the gm and when the team build a balanced team)

All you need is pretty much have more than double its force as a dicepool and/or high edge. (Also you may have to trust that your gm doesn't let the spirit take ITS ridiculous edge to resist binding ... but hey: Say you allways treated them nice and have plans in alignment with the spirit... why SHOULD it?)

Since all the equipment, spell and mentor boni are on the mage side of the contest, it really isn't that hard to summon something better than yourself (of bigger than your head).

[Ascalaphus]

I think it's a mistake to focus on the Average Case scenario when talking about Binding; it's better to look at the Moderately Bad and Worst Case scenarios. After all, it takes only one colossal failure to kill you, so it's important to know the likelihood of that happening.

Let's assume a healthy wizard with Magic 6, Body 5, Willpower 6. He's therefore got 11 health boxes in both Stun and Physical. He's got another Drain Attribute of 6 - this is a fairly potent wizard, but not obscenely so. (Attributes might be lower, he might have a focus or Initiation - it'll be around this much more or less).

Let's say that we consider the Moderately Bad Case Scenario (MBCS) to be when the spirit rolls 2/3rds hits on its Resist Binding roll (with Force x 2 dice). This strikes me as something that isn't too unlikely too happen, and will probably happen eventually if you try to Bind often enough.

Drain is twice the spirit's raw hits, so that's (2/3) * 2 * 2 * F = F * 2.66 Drain. Ouch! Now on a F6 spirit, that's 16 Stun Drain. Assume you resist one third (4), you'd still go unconscious, so you use Edge to reroll all failed dice, again getting one third wins (2.7), which means you stay conscious, barely. That's the MBCS.

WorstCaseScenario: 6 * 2 * 2 = 24 Stun, which is almost certainly going to render you unconscious, and unless you get at least 2 (doable!) hits on your Drain Resistance, you'll go into Overflow.

So far, F6 is rough, but not impossible to survive. Now let's take a look at F8 - overcasting just the teensiest bit!

Average Case: (1/3) * 2 * 2 * 8 = 10.66 Phyical damage pre-Resistance: leaves you quite sore, but not going to kill you. Worth it for the spirit as a trump card, maybe.
MBCS: 21.33 Physical damage - only survivable if you ace the Drain Resistance. Better have some Edge left!
WCS: 2 * 2 * 8 = 32 Physical damage. Time for the HoG...

Another point to consider is that you need to've summoned that F8 spirit the same day, and will have had to deal with its Drain on the summoning too. Not nearly as intense, since Summoning Drain is only F, not F*2, but still; the ritual to Bind takes so long that you can't spend many hours recuperating from it.

---

Conclusion: Binding F8 spirits is feasible for a strong wizard, but it's likely going to take several points of Edge (to get any services at all, and to deal with the Drain). This isn't something you do as standard practice, it's to have a spirit hidden away for Special Occasions.

Of course, a tricked out, multiple-initiation wizard might have a much easier time of it.

And of course, if the GM decides to let the spirit use Edge to resist the Binding, you're so dead...

[Irion]

@Summerstorm

Surely a problem: Physical drain, low dice pools hard enough to summon a force 6, BINDING? No way.

The problem is, there is no way to tell avarage, when it comes to magic.
Meet Walter. He is a wage mage(mook) with a magic of 12.
@Ascalaphus

WorstCaseScenario: 6 * 2 * 2 = 24 Stun

Probability:0.00137
And thats binding a force 6 spirit. I said this is not a thing you should do. (Well, I said not so easy. Should have but a smily emphasising the point)

The poin is summoning a force 6 sprit is 12 drain top.
MBCS:8
Avarage: 4
Still, getting 4 hits (MBCS) on 6 dices is not something you see often. Stil it is possible to stand up against.

On the other hand a force 8 spirit delivers a lot more punsh than a foce 4 sprit. (Not just twice as good)
So even summoning a force 8 spirit is mostly worth the risk. Because the possibility of getting 16 points of drain is low. Getting shot by the opposition is quite higher.

[Ascalaphus]

Yeah, the point of my calculations (not terribly clearly) is that it's doable to Bind spirits if you don't have to Overcast. The MBCS Drain of a F6 spirit is still almost certainly not fatal, and you might even stay conscious. Having a friend with SnS and a first aid kit there isn't a bad idea though.

On the other hand, if you have to overcast, you suddenly risk going into Overflow if you fall unconscious. There's a big leap in risk going from 6 (assumed to be a Magic 6 mage) to 7+, because you have only one condition monitor to put the Drain into instead of both a Stun and Physical track.

[LurkerOutThere]

Let me just say that I am not a fan of giving all the spirits edge = force. I felt this was a ridiculous change in the current edition and was one more case of magic creep.

However since I do tend to have the add edge to the test to resist summoning and especially binding especially for spirits whose magic is greater then that of their summoner I don't see as many high bound spirits. I sometimes bypass this is people roleplay the ritual aspects of summoning and binding in keeping with their tradition.

Edit and Addendum: I also cap skills for sprites and spirits. I can't find a rule calling for it, but i can't find a rule making them a special case either.

[Mäx]

1. Higher skills than usual metahumans. We are lead to believe 7 is the highest anyone could ever get.

Umm no it's not, it's 10(8 if you want to stay mundane) for almost all skills.
I doupt you see force 10+ spirits all that often and even if you do it's not really their skills that are the biggest danger at that point (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[LurkerOutThere]

I believe you are confusing dicepool bonuses with actual raising of skills, in any case unless you have something that specifically raises the ceiling six is the max for a characters.

[Makki]

I believe you are confusing dicepool bonuses with actual raising of skills, in any case unless you have something that specifically raises the ceiling six is the max for a characters.

there are a handful of qualities (like Natural Athlete), there's 'ware like Reflex Recorder or MbW and ofc the Improved Ability Adept Power.

[Mäx]

I believe you are confusing dicepool bonuses with actual raising of skills, in any case unless you have something that specifically raises the ceiling six is the max for a characters.

No, skills have an augmented max of 1,5 times the natural rating and there are ways to get to that cap.

[Badmoodguy88]

But summoned spirits do not have ways to raise their skills other than what they come with, and free spirits can basically just use qualities, gear, and spells to get a dice pool bonus.

Anyway free spirits PCs has a line that says they effectively have no limit on skills and attributes. But being that they can't use ware, or foci to boost skills it is not that shocking. They would need to have huge amounts of karma to match what a human mage can do with a high force focus. Buying the initiations, attribute, and skill to get all the way up to magic 12, spell casting 12, is nigh impossible even assuming you spend karma on nothing else.

[Summerstorm]

Eh, free spirits are not the problem -especially player character free spirits. They are weakened (because... they live here now too... whatever).

The problem is that mages just call someone proficient in any skill or any form of combat out of thin air in ONE complex action to do their bidding. And yeah: i meant normal, natural skill, but even enhanced skills crash down before spirits, if those are strong enough.

Also: Yeah, like i said, in standard power the magic system TOTALLY works. For a Magic 4, sorcery/summoning 3 character with say a powerfocus 1, the available options and risks are totally in line. He can control minds of lesser man, but not always and not reliable. He can call in another competent combatant and he can, through spirits duplicate skills in okay-ish competence.

But a Magic 6, Summoning 6 (+2spec), +2 Mentor spirit, +4 Power focus wielding dude with Will 6, Cha 6, Edge 6 and a 4-point drain-pact and centering is the problem. And that isn't even beginning to go overboard (With enhanced attributes, drugs, support characters, special summoning circles and stuff)

So yeah... such people CAN and will bind impossibly high spirits. Is is expensive and potentiel dangerous? Sure. But those "Forces of Nature" are an instant "Resolve my immediate Problems"-card. And just feel unfair to other characters.

For example in my group i have my dreaded mage (I took over the group, so i wasn't in charge when the character was approved): A pixie mage, optimized (but not even to hell and back) for summoning air spirits.

She not only is EASILY dishing out most damage, and instant incapacitations (you ever tried to get out of an air-engulf?) but has also an insane amount of options through the spirits powers (Wheel magic, has guidance). Now if she would ALSO have task-spirits i can safely say that the rest of the team would have only have value as bodies on the battlefield (and they are really not bad, even very good).

[Yerameyahu]

Don't you escape all Engulfs equally (assuming you lost the initial melee attack, you then Opposed Strength + Body against Magic + Body)? Air spirits are F-2 Body, so they're perhaps the easiest to escape.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Eh, free spirits are not the problem -especially player character free spirits. They are weakened (because... they live here now too... whatever).

The problem is that mages just call someone proficient in any skill or any form of combat out of thin air in ONE complex action to do their bidding. And yeah: i meant normal, natural skill, but even enhanced skills crash down before spirits, if those are strong enough.

Also: Yeah, like i said, in standard power the magic system TOTALLY works. For a Magic 4, sorcery/summoning 3 character with say a powerfocus 1, the available options and risks are totally in line. He can control minds of lesser man, but not always and not reliable. He can call in another competent combatant and he can, through spirits duplicate skills in okay-ish competence.

But a Magic 6, Summoning 6 (+2spec), +2 Mentor spirit, +4 Power focus wielding dude with Will 6, Cha 6, Edge 6 and a 4-point drain-pact and centering is the problem. And that isn't even beginning to go overboard (With enhanced attributes, drugs, support characters, special summoning circles and stuff)

So yeah... such people CAN and will bind impossibly high spirits. Is is expensive and potentiel dangerous? Sure. But those "Forces of Nature" are an instant "Resolve my immediate Problems"-card. And just feel unfair to other characters.

For example in my group i have my dreaded mage (I took over the group, so i wasn't in charge when the character was approved): A pixie mage, optimized (but not even to hell and back) for summoning air spirits.

She not only is EASILY dishing out most damage, and instant incapacitations (you ever tried to get out of an air-engulf?) but has also an insane amount of options through the spirits powers (Wheel magic, has guidance). Now if she would ALSO have task-spirits i can safely say that the rest of the team would have only have value as bodies on the battlefield (and they are really not bad, even very good).

And yet, there are rules in place to handle such insanity... You just have to be willing to use them consistently. I can guarantee you that it is a serious matter if ANY character even thinks about summoning a Force 6+ Spirit at our table. This is becaus it can kill you outright. Binding one of such power is an almost guaranteed death. Why, you may ask? Because Spirits spend Edge to resist Summoning or Binding at a certain point. That point, for us, is at Force 4 (The point at which the Force of the spirit goes higher than the average Magic Attribute of the summoner in the game world). From Force 4-6, Spirits consider themselves the Summoner's Equal (and thus you are forced into a serious contest of wills as the summoner and the spirit vie for control). From Force 7+, they consider themselves superior to the summoner, in every way (And will take Any and All steps to sieze control from the summoner, including using the most advantageous, to them, interpretation of the commands that they are given).

If you are having issues with High Force Spirits in game, then you are not taking enough steps to control them in game.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Don't you escape all Engulfs equally (assuming you lost the initial melee attack, you then Opposed Strength + Body against Magic + Body)? Air spirits are F-2 Body, so they're perhaps the easiest to escape.

Indeed... Air Spirits are not my Spirit of Choice for the use of Engulf. An Engulf attack from a Powerful Air Spirit (Force 6 is only rolling 10 Dice in the opposed test, after all) is almost useless against Dwarves, Orks or Trolls, and is about on par with average Shadowrunning Humans and Elves. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Halinn]

I believe you are confusing dicepool bonuses with actual raising of skills, in any case unless you have something that specifically raises the ceiling six is the max for a characters.

Sure, there's a cap for characters, but it sure isn't universal. Case in point, Great Dragons have Sorcery skill at 12 and Conjuring at 8 (sr4a p 304).