[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sure, there's a cap for characters, but it sure isn't universal. Case in point, Great Dragons have Sorcery skill at 12 and Conjuring at 8 (sr4a p 304).

So... Are you saying that you want PC's to have access to Skill Levels equal to what Dragons and High Level Spirits can acquire? If so, Why?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Summerstorm]

Well, i would like it too.

Because:
Feels fair. Sure, nobody will ever GET to Sorcery 12 or Pistol 15. But having it open-ended always gives prospects, and can motivate people to try and become "THE BEST EVAAAR"
Also as a gm you can always say: That dude is better than you, if you really need it *g*.

As it stands now there are just too many people in the high-end range (Against the intent of the rules and the flavour of the world... just out of balancing issues). Clustered together, not differing so much from each other. Having the skills uncapped allows for example the "old master" back in: Lower physical stats, but life-long honed skills.

Back to spirits: Oh, yeah my notes were wrong on the engulf... i made that mistake for TWO YEARS now. Had them make a melee-roll to get out, not an attribute roll... crap. Ok, Air will LAND its engulf... but keeping people in is indeed not that good.

[Mäx]

So... Are you saying that you want PC's to have access to Skill Levels equal to what Dragons and High Level Spirits can acquire? If so, Why?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Im pretty sure he's just pointing out that while characters have a limit on skill(which isn't 6), it's not an universal limit.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, i would like it too.

Because:
Feels fair. Sure, nobody will ever GET to Sorcery 12 or Pistol 15. But having it open-ended always gives prospects, and can motivate people to try and become "THE BEST EVAAAR"
Also as a gm you can always say: That dude is better than you, if you really need it *g*.

As it stands now there are just too many people in the high-end range (Against the intent of the rules and the flavour of the world... just out of balancing issues). Clustered together, not differing so much from each other. Having the skills uncapped allows for example the "old master" back in: Lower physical stats, but life-long honed skills.

Back to spirits: Oh, yeah my notes were wrong on the engulf... i made that mistake for TWO YEARS now. Had them make a melee-roll to get out, not an attribute roll... crap. Ok, Air will LAND its engulf... but keeping people in is indeed not that good.

Why should it be fair? Oh, and as a GM, I can say that NOW... The second that you uncap Skill Levels, you will see characters with close to max Levels. And then the bonuses that ensue make for even MORE Crazy DP's than you get now. No sir... Keep the Caps in place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Badmoodguy88]

It would solve thew old problem of mundanes not having as many ways to expand. But on the other side people normally spend a lot on those extra few dice (karma, ware, and so on). Still, no one said uncapped skills needed to be cheap for humans.

Maybe something like ordeal and initiation for raising skills. Think montages from 80's kungfu movies. "walk though the rain with out touching a drop" "do what now?". Kung fu already has a some nifty areas of expansion. Anyways this is totally off topic, even off topic from the off topic, topic this has become.

Anyway for free spirits they can only choose powers that are available to their tradition. Voodoo lets them have access to every power but venom. And guidance spirit's engulf power is quite nice and very different. It is stun damage but ignores armor. Possession tradition has its downsides but if you are going free spirit of possession Voodoo is probably the best unless you think Hedge witch craft with intuition drain stat is better.

[Irion]

On the skills I have to agree with Summerstorm.
It would put an end to the stupid I am Master of the universe in Martial art, Firearms medicine etc but still I do suck.

Higher skills are self regulating.
The 6. point on your primary skill is always worth it, even on a secondary skill. But the 10. or the 11. isn't anymore.
22 Karma for one additional dice for firearms?
Link it to an attribute like: Max skill = natural attribute +1 and you are fine. The highest skill a human could get would be around 10.
But I guess there would not be a lot of players aiming for it. Most would stay with 6 to 8.

And then the bonuses that ensue make for even MORE Crazy DP's than you get now. No sir... Keep the Caps in place.

Why? It would not be efficient to do so. Every point cost more than the last. So yes, given unlimited Karma would lead to that. But Why would you raise pistols from 9 to 10 if you could raise athletics (4 skills) from 0 to 2?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

On the skills I have to agree with Summerstorm.
It would put an end to the stupid I am Master of the universe in Martial art, Firearms medicine etc but still I do suck.

Higher skills are self regulating.
The 6. point on your primary skill is always worth it, even on a secondary skill. But the 10. or the 11. isn't anymore.
22 Karma for one additional dice for firearms?
Link it to an attribute like: Max skill = natural attribute +1 and you are fine. The highest skill a human could get would be around 10.
But I guess there would not be a lot of players aiming for it. Most would stay with 6 to 8.

And yet this is not born out through experience. I have seen many a SR3 Character with more than a single High-Teens Skill.

Why? It would not be efficient to do so. Every point cost more than the last. So yes, given unlimited Karma would lead to that. But Why would you raise pistols from 9 to 10 if you could raise athletics (4 skills) from 0 to 2?

Because there is a group of people whgo are never happy with anything less than the Best you can get. They will spend those points to get there.

[suoq]

Why should it be fair? Oh, and as a GM, I can say that NOW... The second that you uncap Skill Levels, you will see characters with close to max Levels. And then the bonuses that ensue make for even MORE Crazy DP's than you get now. No sir... Keep the Caps in place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This is exactly why I ignore anyone who says that spirits don't need to be capped because sane characters can't summon insanely high spirits. If level 6 is the most anyone SHOULD be able to summon, then hard cap them at 6. Anyone who doesn't want that hard cap clearly sees the possibility of summoning a higher level spirit at some point.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This is exactly why I ignore anyone who says that spirits don't need to be capped because sane characters can't summon insanely high spirits. If level 6 is the most anyone SHOULD be able to summon, then hard cap them at 6. Anyone who doesn't want that hard cap clearly sees the possibility of summoning a higher level spirit at some point.

But your argument is flawed. Spirit Force for summoning is not hard capped. Skills DO have a Hard Cap. Apples and Oranges.
Summoning a High Level Spirit IS possible... It should just not be possible for every Tom, Dick, and Harry to do so, however. There are already ways to keep this in control. Uncapping Skill levels is not the way to do so. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

@suoq
The problem is that you might want to have spirits higher than force 6 at some point of a story.
Might they be free spirits or ally spirits of an ancient mage or what so ever.

If you would go with the "Hard cap at 6" you would need to do so with everything about magic.
Attribute, BC, spirits etc.

[suoq]

The problem is that you might want to have spirits higher than force 6 at some point of a story.
Might they be free spirits or ally spirits of an ancient mage or what so ever.

So, I might want skills higher than 6 as well. I can't think of a hard cap I would NEVER want to ignore for the purposes of telling a story. However, when I'm the GM, I DO get to ignore hard caps because I'm the GM. (People who don't like that can GM instead of me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) This doesn't mean I ignore the caps. I better have a damn good reason for even thinking about it. But as GM, I have more freedom than the players. Again, if they don't like it, they can do the prep work and run the adventure. It's beliefs like that that have kept me from having to run a Shadowrun adventure for the past year. Yay!

If you would go with the "Hard cap at 6" you would need to do so with everything about magic.
Attribute, BC, spirits etc.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif) Nothing but love for that. Nothing but love. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

[Irion]

@suoq

So, I might want skills higher than 6 as well. I can't think of a hard cap I would NEVER want to ignore for the purposes of telling a story. However, when I'm the GM, I DO get to ignore hard caps because I'm the GM. (People who don't like that can GM instead of me.

Well, here the me GM is a bit different. But I guess everybody has his style.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif) Nothing but love for that. Nothing but love. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

Darn you. You won the argument. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Elfenlied]

Well, at my table, possession of any living vessel caps the attributes at the augmented maximum of the host vessel, and the skills at 6. Lifeless vessels are still uncapped. This is mostly to prevent mages from making themselves or teammates invulnerable.

As for the use of Edge, I'm in the camp of "Spirits don't Edge unless forced to do so." Meaning that spirits can and will spend edge, but only under two circumstances:
a) The summoners spends 1 pt of his own edge, allowing his spirit to use edge in any way a PC is able to. This gives the player some degree of control, without infinite resources.
b) The summoner attempts to bind or summon a spirit with a Force rating > his own magic rating. This caps spirits somewhat, without totally gimping them. Note that at our table, anything with F<6 cannot meaningfully contribute to serious encounters. Other tables may have other playstyles, but we play with fairly high optimization and genre savvy opposition.

Also, no spirits except for free spirits and ally spirits get Magical Guard.

[phlapjack77]

I'd add a quick thought that maybe Spirit Affinity or similar would affect whether spirits spend Edge to resist a summoning / binding...not sure exactly HOW it would affect it though...maybe something like, in your b) example, someone with the particular spirit affinity has to summon a spirit with Force + 1 > magic rating...

[Raiki]

As for the use of Edge, I'm in the camp of "Spirits don't Edge unless forced to do so." Meaning that spirits can and will spend edge, but only under two circumstances:
b) The summoner attempts to bind or summon a spirit with a Force rating > his own magic rating. This caps spirits somewhat, without totally gimping them. Note that at our table, anything with F<6 cannot meaningfully contribute to serious encounters. Other tables may have other playstyles, but we play with fairly high optimization and genre savvy opposition.

So, because you consider your table highly optimized, you feel the need to sucker punch mages? Spirits of force less than 6 (the only spirits runners can safely summon until they complete the lengthy and cost-heavy process of initiation/buy up magic/initiation/buy up magic ad nauseum) cannot contribute, but any spirit over that range automatically uses edge to resist? Does the sam's gun start to recoil more if he loads it with SnS ammo? Do riggers get penalties for rigging drones larger than them? And what about sprites? Do you have the same restrictions on technomancers?

I may be overreacting because it's 4am and I'm exhausted, but there seems to be a ridiculous level of reactionary magic-hate popping up on the boards lately.


~R~

[Elfenlied]

So, because you consider your table highly optimized, you feel the need to sucker punch mages? Spirits of force less than 6 (the only spirits runners can summon until they complete the lengthy and cost-heavy process of initiation/buy up magic/initiation/buy up magic ad nauseum) cannot contribute, but any spirit over that range automatically uses edge to resist? Does the sam's gun start to recoil more if he loads it with SnS ammo? Do riggers get penalties for rigging drones larger than them? And what about sprites? Do you have the same restrictions on technomancers?

I may be overreacting because it's 4am and I'm exhausted, but there seems to be a ridiculous level of reactionary magic-hate popping up on the boards lately.


~R~

Well, I've always considered myself to be one of the more lenient DMs on this board in regard to magic. That said, you seem to misread my post; spirits only use edge if their force exceeds the summoners force. Therefore, if your mage has magic rating 8, any spirit of force up to 8 will not edge against your summoning/binding unless you have seriously offended said spirit type. Compare that ruling to, say, the one Tymeaus Jalynsfein uses at his table (no offense to you, Tymeaus), where every spirit of Force 4 or higher automatically edges, regardless whether you have magic 6 or magic 10.

Also, if I may quote myself:

Note that at our table, anything with F<6 cannot meaningfully contribute to serious encounters.

Emphasis mine. Not every encounter is "serious", by which I mean "challenging". There are plenty of fights with mooks and other low-tech opposition which are not designed to be life-threatening.

And yes, sprites face the same restriction.

[Ascalaphus]

I'd like to bring the discussion back to the original point: balancing spirits WITH EACH OTHER.

The idea is to make them equal enough in power that you can freely create a custom tradition with any loadout of spirits without anyone crying Munchkin! because the spirits you've taken are all superior to the rest.

SO.

The following seem to be the troublemakers:

Guardian: a guardian spirit with a gun has (F*2)+2 dice to hit and 2IPs. That's quite a lot, but is there any elegant way to deal with that?

Even if you cap skill at 6, that doesn't change the fact that a F6 guardian spirit is basically another street sam, fresh from the aether. Binding them isn't terribly interesting, because that's expensive in binding material and takes a lot of time - any other character could just hire an NPC gunslinger, too. But just the one guardian you get from Summoning could have 14 dice to hit with. Not nearly as much as a dedicated gunbunny, but quite powerful still.

Task: I get the impression people don't really mind them as Materialization spirits, but think they're easy skillwires for Possession mages? In that case I think the problem might be more related to Possession and the unfortunate rules for Skillwires since SR4A...

Guidance: Divination is a bit of a troublesome power, but on the other hand the GM has several ways to deal with it:
- be vague
- be highly symbolic, in hopes that the players will misinterpret the divination
- "Future still unclear, try again later" if you don't know it yet, or don't want them to know yet. Fate just hasn't coalesced in a particular path yet.
- Outright telling the player that in any RPG, there's a problem with divination: if the player wants to know the future, then he's asking the GM to railroad the PCs into that particular future. Ask the player to exercise some restraint.
- Plan your runs with Divination in mind; "enemies will try to ambush them in nasty ways, but thanks to Divination, they'll be warned about the insta-death sniper and be able to take steps". This works best if you are more a planner than an improviser as GM

Or you could just cut the Divination power out, and instead give them the optional power of having a particular Knowledge in the same way as Task and Guardian spirits.

Magical Guard: It does strike me as a bit uneven that the older spirits lack this power. Maybe they all should have it, or none? Maybe all spirits should be able to counterspell spells cast at themselves (protecting against Stunbolt, but not Banishing), but only Guardian spells cast at others (in keeping with its role as protector)?

[LurkerOutThere]

I may be overreacting because it's 4am and I'm exhausted, but there seems to be a ridiculous level of reactionary magic-hate popping up on the boards lately.


~R~

Just because it's reactionary doesn't mean it's undeserved. Further your assumption about Elfenlied's post seems inacurate especially given that i use a very similar setup.

[phlapjack77]

Task: I get the impression people don't really mind them as Materialization spirits, but think they're easy skillwires for Possession mages? In that case I think the problem might be more related to Possession and the unfortunate rules for Skillwires since SR4A...

I'd say this could be brought back in power without nerfing it completely by making the mage's tradition somehow limit the skills available (maybe apply this to Guardian spirit above also).

Magical Guard: It does strike me as a bit uneven that the older spirits lack this power. Maybe they all should have it, or none? Maybe all spirits should be able to counterspell spells cast at themselves (protecting against Stunbolt, but not Banishing), but only Guardian spells cast at others (in keeping with its role as protector)?

Maybe have every spirit able to counterspell, but limited to whatever spell-type the tradition attunes them to. If some feel this nerfs Guardian, don't apply this to that spirit.

*edit* looking back over my answers, it seems I'm very pro-tradition-limitations. Seems like it would be a good thing, giving traditions more "flavor" and maybe making the tradition choices more meaningful than what spirits it gets...or is that just shifting the problem to a different area...hmmmm

[Ascalaphus]

I'd say this could be brought back in power without nerfing it completely by making the mage's tradition somehow limit the skills available (maybe apply this to Guardian spirit above also).

That's an interesting idea.. I was thinking it was odd that spirits (which are defined as having trouble comprehending even basic electronics) could have Hacking.

Of course, tying spirits to some medieval tech-level where brownies operate a smithy is a bit dubious for someone with a futuristic tradition (Jedi..) too, and I don't think it's entirely bad if guardian spirits use gun.. having a guardian spirit materialize as a cowboy and pick up a Ruger Super Warhawk has some class.

If you switch the Guidance spirit's Divination to a Knowledge power, limiting the skills becomes even more critical; you wouldn't want players to summon them with Knowledge: What The Enemy Is Really Up To.

Maybe have every spirit able to counterspell, but limited to whatever spell-type the tradition attunes them to. If some feel this nerfs Guardian, don't apply this to that spirit.

*edit* looking back over my answers, it seems I'm very pro-tradition-limitations. Seems like it would be a good thing, giving traditions more "flavor" and maybe making the tradition choices more meaningful than what spirits it gets...or is that just shifting the problem to a different area...hmmmm

I think making Tradition count more, making magic a little less generic (but in a mechanically clean way) is a worthy goal.

[Psikerlord]

From what I can tell, the problems arise from the street magic possession tradition spirits...? ... Sounds like another reason not to allow PC possession mages. But otherwise I quite like the idea of restricting magical guardian to spell category and capping spirit skills according to the host body or 6. Also I like the idea of spirits having edge = half force and only using it when life or death (ie cannot be directed to do so).

[Ascalaphus]

Another option is if spirits use Edge on the Binding/Summoning resistance tests if (and only if?):
* The magician has treated these spirits poorly in the past (used them as cannon fodder..)
* The magician is using Edge on the Binding/Summoning test (tit for tat)

I'd say that spirits can't be compelled to use Edge on behalf of their master, but if the situation fits the spirit type, they might (a fire spirit would use Edge to dodge a water-based assault for example, or to attack a foe inimical to its tradition).

[Makki]

from this forum, somewhere
When Summoning a spirit:

Roll a single die.
Subtract 1 per case from result if

* Spirit force is greater than summoner's magic rating.
* Summoner regularly does 'spirit swapping' (=summoning a spirit only to let another mage banish and summon it).
* Summoner actions resulted in several of his spirits being disrupted in the last month.
* Summoner is summoning in an environment aspected against the magical paradigm (e.g. nature spirit in a toxic domain.)
* other reason determined by GM. (E.g. a Shaman asking the great avatar of water to wash his car. This might be appropriate for a Hermetic or Chaos mage)

Result < 0: Spirit is hostile, and only aid the character because it is bound to do so. Spirit will resist Summoning and Bindings using edge, and will actively seek to undermine the character's desires by using loopholes in the wording of his commands.
Result 0: Spirit is sullen and resentful. While the spirit doesn't hate the character personally, it does hate to be compelled. Spirit will occasionally interpret commands in a way that undermines the character's desires, but will not go to the lengths of actually expending Edge to resist anything.
Result 1: Spirit is impatient but not hostile. Spirit will fulfill the caster's commands in the quickest possible way involving the least expenditure of effort or risk to itself. (e.g. Instructed to 'Guard me', the spirit uses the spirit power Guard and then retires to the astral plane. The spirit won't stay near by to guard the summoner physically unless specifically commanded, and may consider it another service.)
Result 2-3: Spirit is professional, and impersonal. Spirit interprets instructions in a reasonable manner for it's force rating. Spirit doesn't use edge to either help or resist caster.
Result 4-5: Spirit is generally friendly, and courteous. Spirit will use appropriate tactics, but won't use edge for the character's sake.
Result 6: Spirit is friendly, views the trip to the material plane as an adventure, or for some reason feels it 'owes' the summoner. Spirit will use the best tactics available, based on it's knowledge and intelligence. Spirit will occasionally use edge on actions to aid the character.

[Ascalaphus]

That is a very interesting idea! It makes spirits much less like emotionless drones, and not quite so predictable for the caster.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, I've always considered myself to be one of the more lenient DMs on this board in regard to magic. That said, you seem to misread my post; spirits only use edge if their force exceeds the summoners force. Therefore, if your mage has magic rating 8, any spirit of force up to 8 will not edge against your summoning/binding unless you have seriously offended said spirit type. Compare that ruling to, say, the one Tymeaus Jalynsfein uses at his table (no offense to you, Tymeaus), where every spirit of Force 4 or higher automatically edges, regardless whether you have magic 6 or magic 10.

No Offense Taken Elfenlied... There is a mechanic in place at our table (backed by a Skill) that will allow a character to mitigate the Edge Expenditure for Spirits higher than Force 3. It takes a roll, and some roleplaying to fucntion correctly. But in the end, it is not that big of a deal. By Fluff, High Force Spirits are extremely rare. If you can just casually summon a Spirit of Force 8+ (as some on this board espouse), then that fluff goes out the door. The rule we use forces High Force Spirits into that Rare Category. It has worked out wonderfully for us.

I know that it is not for everyone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)