Touchlink - What it is really good for? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[StevenAngier]

While thumbing down my SR4A again I came across this implant.
The immediate use is pretty clear - submit tactile informations to the user.

My question is: Does this Implant subsume the functions of AR Gloves? While the Gloves provide the means to manually interact with the AR, the Touchlink doesn't state so.
I'd trend to say this is the cyberware version of AR-Gloves.

Your opinions on that?

[HunterHerne]

That seems to be it's use, yes.

[Yerameyahu]

I wouldn't think so. It's like Image Link for touch. The thing is, cyberware is already DNI, so there's no need for 'manual'. And trodes already do it all anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[StevenAngier]

I wouldn't think so. It's like Image Link for touch. The thing is, cyberware is already DNI, so there's no need for 'manual'. And trodes already do it all anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes and no. While you can give adequate output your sensoric input is rather limited solely using DNI for it. By mentally touching the button you KNOW that you have touched it but your sensoric system says "nothing touched" - AR-ware like image links, audio links and touch links provide this sensoric input as does a full fledged sim module. And there is nothing better to prove you HAVE pushed the damn button by FEELING it being pushed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I know, this could also be accomplished by simply using a sim module but I'd like to circumvent the use of one just to see if it's possible.

[Yerameyahu]

Nah. DNI is full simsense; if anything, it's realer than real. You can literally transmit the emotion of button-touching, along with the tactile sensation of doing it.

I appreciate your sentiment and your attempt, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Teulisch]

a touchlink could provide additional sensory data in combat that could be useful. like a burning itch everywhere you know a gun is aimed at you, to help you dodge. that would need a good tacsoft network to do any real good though.

[LurkerOutThere]

It's one of those flavor things that doesn't really go over well with PC's because your scrimping your essence on more useful things.

[Yerameyahu]

I think a burning itch, esp. 'everywhere', would be a distinct penalty in combat. :o But yes, Touch Link is certainly an output channel for AR, which is inherently useful. I'm saying it's not a better output channel than simsense, and that it's not an input channel at all.

[StevenAngier]

Nah. DNI is full simsense; if anything, it's realer than real. You can literally transmit the emotion of button-touching, along with the tactile sensation of doing it.

I appreciate your sentiment and your attempt, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Since when is DNI full simsense? DNI is just an interface I thought...

[HunterHerne]

Since when is DNI full simsense? DNI is just an interface I thought...

As I understand it, it is. A Simsense Module needs a DNI to work. The module is just an interface that allows those sensations.

The touchlink seems to be, as mentioned, image link for the sense of touch, over the whole body. I can see this being useful for using AR and other matrix interfaces without necessarily needing hands (unlike AR gloves, for example), and could be most useful to Naga. Too bad Naga also require Delta ware.

[StevenAngier]

My understanding of this was:

There are three methods to experience AR.

By physical sensorical input (pictures, sounds etc.)
By DNI as mental images IN YOUR HEAD.
By SimSense as a combination of those two, directly bringing the sensorical input IN YOUR HEAD.

Physical input on your side can also be done by peripherals or direct control of the commlink. AR-Gloves come to mind.
SimSense - experienced over a Sim-Module can also used to manipulate the AR (as stated in Unwired p. 58f)
A DNI though is something inbetween. Firstly it's an interface to let you control your PAN with your Thoughts. Yet on p. 58 it's also described as capable of giving feedback by composing mental images. This is distinctively different from the SimSense input you get as it's only mental. Meaning it's not "better than life" but more like "remember this way".

My problem is this: I just want to experience AR. Be able to see it (Cybereyes, check), manipulate it (DNI, check) and Hear it. Maybe feel it. Is DNI capable of accomplishing this without a sim module by these "mental images" or do I need additional peripherals/ware/a sim module for that?

[HunterHerne]

Meaning it's not "better than life" but more like "remember this way".

That's because "Better than life" is what you get when you modify sim modules for hot Sim.

[HunterHerne]

My problem is this: I just want to experience AR. Be able to see it (Cybereyes, check), manipulate it (DNI, check) and Hear it. Maybe feel it. Is DNI capable of accomplishing this without a sim module by these "mental images" or do I need additional peripherals/ware/a sim module for that?

No. If you want to "feel" AR, you need either a Sim module, or touchlink/AR gloves. The Sim Module is the most informative way to do that, as AR Gloves only measure what is in the hand, and Touch link only works for touch, not any emotive features that may be present in the programming.

[StevenAngier]

That's because "Better than life" is what you get when you modify sim modules for hot Sim.

Yeah I know. But that's not the point. Look at the last paragraph. I don't want a Sim module to be standard but I'd like to be able to perceive the AR standards (see, hear) with as less ware/peripherals as possible.

My setup would have been: Image link, Audio link, (Touch link,) implanted Kommlink. Question is if I can subsume all the links into DNI and say that it takes all place in the head without being really simsense.

[HunterHerne]

Yeah I know. But that's not the point. Look at the last paragraph. I don't want a Sim module to be standard but I'd like to be able to perceive the AR standards (see, hear) with as less ware/peripherals as possible.

My setup would have been: Image link, Audio link, (Touch link,) implanted Kommlink. Question is if I can subsume all the links into DNI and say that it takes all place in the head without being really simsense.

Yes, if you don't care about the emotional features, that set up works fine. Keep in mind that all cyber ware is DNI, so if you are using ears, eyes, touch link and and implanted commlink, you don't need trodes at all. Even if you aren't using cyber-ears with the Audio link through the commlink, it wouldn't matter at all.

[StevenAngier]

So an implanted commlink alone or an external one with trodes / a datajack would suffice for standard AR like... a video conference?

[HunterHerne]

As long as you have the image link and audio link to see and hear, yeah, it will.

[StevenAngier]

That's the question. p.58 Unwired says that DNI alone can give you feedback but it would be mentally (seeing / hearing the other side in your head) instead of sensoric input. That would suffice for me IF I understand it correctly.

[Sengir]

By DNI as mental images IN YOUR HEAD.
By SimSense as a combination of those two, directly bringing the sensorical input IN YOUR HEAD.

To access the matrix via simsense you need three components: A commlink, a sim module, and some kind of DNI (direct neural interface) to connect the sim module to your brain. The latter can be done via trodes, a datajack, or by implanting the whole module.

A sim module acts as a modem for the brain, so DNI without a sim module in between won't do anything (or at least nothing good). Well, unless you are playing a 3rd Ed Otaku (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[StevenAngier]

Don't want to access VR. Only use the day to day AR standards with as less ware/peripherals as possible.
And as mentioned above I understand DNI as capable of translating a video call directly to your head. The difference is, while an audio link would be able to interact with the fine details of hearing, with DNI alone you would hear the other's voice in your head just as it would be a thought. And that's where I'm really digging. Finding out IF I understand this correctly.

[HunterHerne]

Yeah, that seems to be how it works. Honestly, that would seem a little disturbing to me. Like a half formed memory. The audio/visual links still sound like a good idea to me.

[Sengir]

Don't want to access VR. Only use the day to day AR standards with as less ware/peripherals as possible.

The mechanics for full VR and beaming AR overlays straight into your brain are the same:

The easiest way to get your AR fix is through simsense. You need
a direct neural interface—either via installed implanted commlink,
implanted sim module, a datajack, or a trode net—along with a sim
module for your commlink to interpret the signals and feed you the
data.

And as mentioned above I understand DNI as capable of translating a video call directly to your head.

DNI is only the connection between brain and cyberware. You cannot buy "a DNI", you buy the necessary gear and connect it by implantation, Datajack or Trodes. This connection is the DNI.

[StevenAngier]

The DNI-Paragraph in Unwired p.58 says that DNI is capable of those "basic" translations to make input from devices understandable to you. Yet it doesn't really declare WHAT sort of interaction with the device is covered.
I know WHAT the DNI is. What I'm confused at is the question what DNI is capable of related to a commlink and the interactions with it.

[Sengir]

The DNI-Paragraph in Unwired p.58 says that DNI is capable of those "basic" translations to make input from devices understandable to you. Yet it doesn't really declare WHAT sort of interaction with the device is covered.

It does, the stuff that is covered by a Change Linked Device Mode Action. This is a simple form of DNI which is essentially limited to doing what the user needs to do with the device in question - toggle Wired Reflexes on/off, get tactile information from a cyberarm (or Touchlink), etc.

But if you want a general-purpose DNI, you need a sim module.

[StevenAngier]

Nope, sorry. This paragraph states otherwise. A DNI is capable of two way communication. The rules just cover those actions relevant for combat. The paragraph is more about the rather "fluffy" applications.
This means a DNI IS capable of giving you (albeit rather imaginary) feedback while SimSense does give you the recorded feedback. Both accomplish the same. While a DNI gives you the response "button pushed" the SimSense would give you the feeling of the pressed button. Both are able to create the image of the pressed button in your brain. The DNI one is imaginary, while the SimSense one is sensoric.

That's at least what the paragraph states.

And yes I find this wildly confusing as it somewhat contradicts the use of a sim module. Yet the module itself is rather archaic in it's purpose. Commlinks and the AR were both invented at the same time with each other in mind. Why a 'link does need another piece of gear to be fully operable for it's intended purpouse is... copious at best.