[X] My Assistant

[hyphz]

Ok. Example on page 149.

Twitch the Elf has 3 IP and can run 25m/turn. So "he'll move 8m per IP and, if he stopped in the middle to help a friend up, he'd be moving only 16m this turn."

That just makes no sense at all to me. If we assume that helping up his friend is a Complex Action, there doesn't seem to be any rule that says he has to stop moving for a Phase in order to perform it. In fact, as I understand it, if his friend was 25m away he could have moved all 25m in his first IP and then helped the friend up as the Complex Action, leaving him with two IP worth of actions left but no movement.

Also, can you perform your actions before your move, after your move, during your move, or any of these?

Another example problem I thought of that also confuses me. SlowGuy has 1 IP and FastGuy has 2 IP. BadGuy has 1 IP. Initiative order goes SlowGuy, FastGuy, BadGuy.

Case 1: SlowGuy is behind cover and wants to head to other cover 10m away. He walks 10m in IP 1. Done. FastGuy does the same. But because he has 2 IP, he ends up moving only 5m in IP 1, which means he's out of cover when BadGuy gets his phase on IP 1, and BadGuy shoots at him. So FastGuy gets shot at and SlowGuy doesn't. What??

Case 2: My response to Case 1 was to say that FastGuy can use all 10m of his movement in his first IP if he wants (which is where my interpretation of the Twitch example came from). But here's a trickier case. SlowGuy wants to move between the cover points and shoot at BadGuy in the process. He has a single shot pistol. He declares the action of firing in the middle of his move and gets his shot off. FastGuy wants to move between the cover points and use his superior speed to fire _twice_ at BadGuy. This should take him the same amount of time as it took SlowGuy to fire once, but it seems there is no way for him to do it without BadGuy getting a shot off at him in the process, even though SlowGuy took the same amount of time and couldn't be targeted.

[HunterHerne]

The only fix to this is what you as GM decide.

I, personally, don't usually bother with movement, as it is almost never important. But in the cases it is, I use the highest number of IP's, and use that to determine what each person moves during each IP. If characters want to delay actions for another IP, they can.

[Stahlseele]

You are misunderstanding something here:
Max movement is divided by max inipasses.
So even if you have more ini passes, you do not run faster.
you just have more opportunities to do something WHILE you run.
In the example with the slow guy, the fast guy and the bad guy, the slow and the fast would, of course, both be in cover.
But the slow guy used his one IP to get there and does not get to do anything else this turn. Fast guy gets to do more stuff.

[hyphz]

You are misunderstanding something here:
Max movement is divided by max inipasses.
So even if you have more ini passes, you do not run faster.
you just have more opportunities to do something WHILE you run.
In the example with the slow guy, the fast guy and the bad guy, the slow and the fast would, of course, both be in cover.
But the slow guy used his one IP to get there and does not get to do anything else this turn. Fast guy gets to do more stuff.

So when you get an active phase you can either move OR take action, not both?

[Stahlseele]

Movement has certain actions assigned to it i think. I am not sure though.

[Yerameyahu]

Your movement is totaled across all IPs (in one Turn). You can take special actions (Sprint, Run) during IPs, but normal movement is not an action.

[hyphz]

Your movement is totaled across all IPs (in one Turn). You can take special actions (Sprint, Run) during IPs, but normal movement is not an action.

So you can move your whole allowance in your first IP if you want to?

[Yerameyahu]

No. Movement rate is per Turn, not IP. If necessary for precision, you can divide it *evenly* between all IPs. This isn't necessary all *your* IPs, either. If you have one IP, and Bob has 4, then there are still 4 IPs in that Combat Turn. You move 1/4 your rate in each one (whether or not *you* act on all 4 IPs in the Turn).

Sprinting (only possibly while Running, which is a whole-Turn mode) muddies things somewhat. Alas. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[hyphz]

No. Movement rate is per Turn, not IP. If necessary for precision, you can divide it *evenly* between all IPs. This isn't necessary all *your* IPs, either. If you have one IP, and Bob has 4, then there are still 4 IPs in that Combat Turn. You move 1/4 your rate in each one (whether or not *you* act on all 4 IPs in the Turn).

Sprinting (only possibly while Running, which is a whole-Turn mode) muddies things somewhat. Alas. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ok. This makes some sense, but seems to result in an even stranger paradox. It means that SlowGuy can get shot at as he crosses a 10m open area if FastGuy is present, because he'll be in the open in BadGuy's turn in IP 1 due to FastGuy's presence forcing 2 IPs. But if SlowGuy smashed FastGuy over the head and knocked him out to make him non-participant in the combat, there would be only one IP, and SlowGuy could move his full 10m in one action, giving BadGuy no chance to fire at him.

[Yerameyahu]

It is indeed strange. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's 'fair' (or, realistically unfair) when you think about it, though. With 2 IPs, Bob is just *faster*. He can easily shoot Slow-Joe in mid-run. If Bob's not there to shoot, then it hardly matters when the Combat Turn (which is always the same ~3 seconds, regardless of how you slice it) 'ends'. Right?

If it would help, you could always divide all Turns into 4 (or 5); technically, those IPs are always there, but we ignore them when no one acts on them. Either way, you're moving the same distance in the same number of seconds.

[hyphz]

It is indeed strange. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's 'fair' (or, realistically unfair) when you think about it, though. With 2 IPs, Bob is just *faster*. He can easily shoot Slow-Joe in mid-run. If Bob's not there to shoot, then it hardly matters when the Combat Turn (which is always the same ~3 seconds, regardless of how you slice it) 'ends'. Right?

Right. But my problem is that FastGuy ("Bob") is SlowGuy's _ALLY_. BadGuy still only has 1 IP; he's no faster than SlowGuy. It's just that FastGuy's presence forces there to be 2 IPs which means that when BadGuy gets his phase, at the end of IP 1, SlowGuy is only halfway through his movement, instead of having completed it (as he would have done if his ally FastGuy were absent, as there would only need to be a 1 IP)

[Bigity]

Yup there is that particular problem, which you could solve with house rules or something.

[Yerameyahu]

That's not really a glitch, as I said. If SlowGuy is running to cover during the Combat Turn, the BadGuy *should* get a chance to shoot him. His movement is *not* complete until the Turn is complete. It would never finish when his own action phase did (unless he chose to *stop* moving early). It's not 'SlowGuy does everything, then BadGuy goes', for movement.

[Faelan]

If it has you chapped over it, just make sure your players are okay with it and make initiative passes resolve in order, that is to say the guy with 1 IP waits until the guy with 4 IP has finished three of them before you even compare initiative results. That is the realistic way of doing it, however your players might bitch and moan when they are the ones getting screwed. The reason it is set up as it is, is so that everyone gets to go before getting hosed. Your game, your table, do as you please. Personally I would simply split movement for everyone into 4 phases per round. You continue moving on passes you don't go on. Solves your spatial problem and keeps the initiative set up the way it is in RAW, though I think my idea might be cool for a particularly brutal kind of game.

[Makki]

we solved it otherwise. Not perfect either so but works at our table, because it doesn't come up often. Every character can move 25m per round in total and can divide this number however he wants. Some chars might appear to run faster than others, but on a 3sec average they're all equally fast.

[Udoshi]

No. Movement rate is per Turn, not IP. If necessary for precision, you can divide it *evenly* between all IPs. This isn't necessary all *your* IPs, either. If you have one IP, and Bob has 4, then there are still 4 IPs in that Combat Turn. You move 1/4 your rate in each one (whether or not *you* act on all 4 IPs in the Turn).

Sprinting (only possibly while Running, which is a whole-Turn mode) muddies things somewhat. Alas. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This, basically. The absolutely easiest way to avoid headaches when thinking about movement rates and multiple passes is actually pretty simple: Just realize/assume that all four initiative passes exist, whether or not anyone can act in them.
This solves the issue of an 1 pass people actually being faster than people with multiple passes. Instead of taking their entire Combat Turn's worth of movement at once, they take 1/4 of it when the start moving, and keep going a bit more as the passes progress.(1/4 more on pass 2, 1/4 more on pass 3, the last fraction on pass 4, then its a new turn)

Walking does not take an action at all.
Running takes a Free action, and has some dice pool bonuses/penalties for attacks and defense.
Sprinting is a simple action that adds 2 meters per hit to your Running rate(so it doesn't help if you are Walking). Its the most annoying to deal with, if you're dividing movement by passes. I would just assume that each hit adds a half meter(2/4) immediately, instead of adjusting later movement because of it.


Another decent houserule I've seen involves changing the length of a combat turn to be Four seconds instead of three - that means one second per pass, and also slightly adjusting the movement tables to be divisors of four. (Human/elf/ork goes to 8/24, dwarves to 8/20, trolls to either 12 or 16(walking)/32). It cuts down slightly on the 'powerwalking shadowrunner is faster than olympic runner' syndrome, but also makes the combat math a lot easier to think about on the fly when everyone has their per-IP-movement rates readily available.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

we solved it otherwise. Not perfect either so but works at our table, because it doesn't come up often. Every character can move 25m per round in total and can divide this number however he wants. Some chars might appear to run faster than others, but on a 3sec average they're all equally fast.

We did something similar. We set the movement rates at multiples of 4 and decided that everyone always had 4 IP's for movement purposes. It does make a bit more book-keeping however.

[hyphz]

Is there a reason why you can't say that someone with more than one IP can move as far as they like in IP, as long as they don't exceed the overall limit in the Combat Turn?

So FastGuy can move 10m on his first IP if he wants to, but will then be unable to move on his second - and if he decides to run at that time will only be able to move 1.5m (23m run speed, / 2 because he is only in run mode for one of 2 phases, - the 10m he has already moved = 1.5m)

Does that break anything else?

I'm not sure I like the "there are always 4 IP" rules since that means that BadGuy can shoot either of them when they are 2.5m along their movement, and paradoxically could NOT shoot them if they were out of cover at the end of their move.

Also, can you do actions before a move, after a move, either, or both?

[HunterHerne]

Is there a reason why you can't say that someone with more than one IP can move as far as they like in IP, as long as they don't exceed the overall limit in the Combat Turn?

So FastGuy can move 10m on his first IP if he wants to, but will then be unable to move on his second - and if he decides to run at that time will only be able to move 1.5m (23m run speed, / 2 because he is only in run mode for one of 2 phases, - the 10m he has already moved = 1.5m)

Does that break anything else?

I'm not sure I like the "there are always 4 IP" rules since that means that BadGuy can shoot either of them when they are 2.5m along their movement, and paradoxically could NOT shoot them if they were out of cover at the end of their move.

Also, can you do actions before a move, after a move, either, or both?

He should be able to get the chance to shoot them, in my opinion. They still have things they can do, and the next turn will be in cover.

It doesn`t matter. The system doesn`t care about what you do for movement, as long as the penalties you rack up apply.

[Udoshi]

Is there a reason why you can't say that someone with more than one IP can move as far as they like in IP, as long as they don't exceed the overall limit in the Combat Turn?

So FastGuy can move 10m on his first IP if he wants to, but will then be unable to move on his second - and if he decides to run at that time will only be able to move 1.5m (23m run speed, / 2 because he is only in run mode for one of 2 phases, - the 10m he has already moved = 1.5m)

Does that break anything else?

I'm not sure I like the "there are always 4 IP" rules since that means that BadGuy can shoot either of them when they are 2.5m along their movement, and paradoxically could NOT shoot them if they were out of cover at the end of their move.

Also, can you do actions before a move, after a move, either, or both?

There is a problem with this. Running still takes actions.
Its unfair to force the faster guy(the one with more IPs) to spend more actions(free actions ARE valuable) to move the same distance if he wants to start and stop.
Fortunately, its an easy fix: Running and Walking now BOTH don't take actions. You decide which mode of movement you're taking when you move, and apply the appropriate penalties for the rest of your action phase.

Your bolded example: What? That doesn't make sense.
If someone is out of cover, and its someone elses turn, then yes, they can be shot.
I think you are misreading into things. There are always 4 IPs, but only for calculating movement. It doesn't automatically give everyone the ability to act in them.

[hyphz]

Your bolded example: What? That doesn't make sense.
If someone is out of cover, and its someone elses turn, then yes, they can be shot.
I think you are misreading into things. There are always 4 IPs, but only for calculating movement. It doesn't automatically give everyone the ability to act in them.

Right, but if there are always 4 IPs and BadGuy can only act in one of them, then the only chance he has to shoot anyone else that turn will be in IP 1 (ie, when they're 2.5m along the movement). They'll finish moving and arrive at their destination in IP 4 and BadGuy won't be able to shoot them at that time because he can't act then.

Won't a guy who wants to run for an entire Combat Turn have to spend all his free actions maintaining that mode, no matter what? The only difference I guess is that with the method I suggested, if he moved 23m in his first IP this would commit him to spending his later free actions on maintaining Run mode.

[HunterHerne]

So he gets a shot off. What's the big deal? If the PCs are "walking" to the cover, that seems a little, overconfident to me, at least roleplaying wise. In reality, if I was shooting you, and you walked out from cover, to go to more cover, it makes sense that you risk beng shot. If you bolt, you might make it, then act when you can. Spend edge for another pass if you want.

[hyphz]

So he gets a shot off. What's the big deal? If the PCs are "walking" to the cover, that seems a little, overconfident to me, at least roleplaying wise. In reality, if I was shooting you, and you walked out from cover, to go to more cover, it makes sense that you risk beng shot. If you bolt, you might make it, then act when you can. Spend edge for another pass if you want.

Under "as many IPs", FastGuy gets shot at 8m instead of 5m if he runs, but he still gets shot. SlowGuy wastes movement he doesn't need.

Under "always 4", FastGuy and SlowGuy both get shot at 2.5m if they don't run or 5.75m if they do.

Spending Edge doesn't help. The only way it can help is if they go _after_ BadGuy in IP 1, move out after he's spent his action, then use Edge to go first in IP 2 and get to the cover before his next one. But that seems a bit specific.

So, why do something that's going to create a penalty if it doesn't help you?

[Bigity]

The thing is, turn-based systems are abstract. Any changes you can add will still be abstract in other ways, and just make it more complicated or cause issues in other situations. Combat in SR is a very varied system, with melee, ranged, magic, spirits, decking, rigging, etc. There are going to be areas that feel a little flat.

When you keep looking at combat turns as 3 seconds, and not X number of passes, it isn't so jarring. People are running, ducking, shooting, dodging constantly most of the time. Having more passes just means you react quicker and so have more meaningful opportunities in the three seconds that other folks might not have.

You've come up with a situation that exposes this particular flaw of an abstract system, but there are many such flaws all over the rules. If it's an issue for you, make a house rule and press on (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HunterHerne]

Under "as many IPs", FastGuy gets shot at 8m instead of 5m if he runs, but he still gets shot. SlowGuy wastes movement he doesn't need.

Under "always 4", FastGuy and SlowGuy both get shot at 2.5m if they don't run or 5.75m if they do.

Spending Edge doesn't help. The only way it can help is if they go _after_ BadGuy in IP 1, move out after he's spent his action, then use Edge to go first in IP 2 and get to the cover before his next one. But that seems a bit specific.

So, why do something that's going to create a penalty if it doesn't help you?

Who are you trying to help? Personally, I think you should do what feels right to you. I like the fact that PCs should think before they act. In reality, if I was either of those PC's, I would never try to go for cover over that exposed an area if I already had cover. Also, the PC's shouldn't know who get's to act, in what order, and a GM could delay action on the NPC until someone reveals himself. I would.