Infusion Foci (Digital Grimoire), Availability 40?!? Options

[Aria]

Does a rt 4 focus really have availability 40? They use a rt 4 one in the example for a lvl 3 initiate so does it really need to be this high or are they trying to push the enchanting skill?!? (Or am I reading something wrongly?)

Thanks

[Fortinbras]

Infusion Focus have an Availability of Rating x 10, but considering what you get for it's worth it for Adepts.

[Aria]

So whilst RT 4 doesn't sound that overpowered it probably needs GM approval... is it even possible to roll for a 40 availability?!?

[Cain]

So whilst RT 4 doesn't sound that overpowered it probably needs GM approval... is it even possible to roll for a 40 availability?!?

It is an extended test. As long as you don't botch, you'll pull it off eventually.

[Lansdren]

Its something fairly special given how its a rare type of foci so a high avaliability isnt that bad

target of 40
time frame of 2 days per roll

Basic search with C3 N3 giving 6 dice extended test means about 40 days of searching nothing to bad then better if you are willing to pay extra to get extra dice.

assumming nothing stupid like the reducing pool for extended tests although in that instance I'd be inclined to just try and find someone else to get it for you and get round it like that.

[Dakka Dakka]

It is an extended test. As long as you don't botch, you'll pull it off eventually.

Unless the GM uses the silly rule of diminishing dice pools. Then you just have to burn EDGE and get it in 2 days or one week for Force 5+.

[Makki]

I read the Magical Goods chapter in SM yesterday. From the fluff point, this high an availability makes sense. 90% of foci are made on commission, unless it's totally mainstream, like a hermetic sustaining focus and you don't care about telesma. There are only so many awakened. even less who are capable enchanters. They should be millionaires...
Now for a commissioned Infusion focus the formula researcher has to know the power(s). That's pushing availability again.

[Thanee]

Unless the GM uses the silly rule of diminishing dice pools.

Nothing silly about that rule at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It's kinda silly, that there is no limit at all without it, and even someone with 3-5 dice, some Edge (for the occasional Glitch) and no Contacts can get/do everything reliably.

Bye
Thanee

[Ascalaphus]

Maybe an interesting variation on Availability would be to increase the eventual buying price by 10% or so for every additional roll you make beyond the first? (Or some variation thereon.)

That way, there is a definite penalty to exhaustive-search approach to getting items, without the sometimes problematic decreasing-dice rule?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Nothing silly about that rule at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It's kinda silly, that there is no limit at all without it, and even someone with 3-5 dice, some Edge (for the occasional Glitch) and no Contacts can get/do everything reliably.

Bye
Thanee

Agreed... the Diminishing Pool Rule has its place in the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[darthmord]

Agreed... the Diminishing Pool Rule has its place in the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

But the mechanic as written leaves something to be desired. It's too binary. You either succeed soon or fail quickly after.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But the mechanic as written leaves something to be desired. It's too binary. You either succeed soon or fail quickly after.

Sure... You have to know when to use it and when not to. At our table, we use the rule if what we are attempting has a hard time limit. Because you have to rush it (so to speak) you have a Diminishing Pool. When time is not a factor, there is no diminishing pool, and it just takes time.

I think the real issue is that when you only have 3 dice, it is a generally held concern that you should not be able to eventually acquire an Availability 40 Item. Honestly, the GM should monitor that, though I guess that there is really nothing wrong if it takes you 80 Days to acquire that Availability 40 piece of equipment. Again, at our table, if we have a piece of gear with that high of an availability, we generally use a specialist to obtain the item in question. Someone who specializes in such gear. But, in our game, contacts mean a lot. The characters (who actually care about such things) in our game cultivate their contacts (some have as little as 10 combined points in Connection and Loyalty, and there are others that are now approaching 300 points of combined Connection and Loyalty). Most of those contacts are gained in play, start at the C 0/L 0 Rating, and are improved in play. There is generally a lot of exposition in our games, though, which may not be the norm.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Aerospider]

It's too binary.

That might just be the funniest thing I've read on DS.

[Mäx]

I think the real issue is that when you only have 3 dice, it is a generally held concern that you should not be able to eventually acquire an Availability 40 Item.

Witch, honestly doesn't make much sense to me.
"You can't ever find anyone selling this item" just sound really stupid to me, no matter how low the characters pool for that is.

[Ascalaphus]

I suppose an unfortunate effect of the diminishing dice pool is that it double-dips; not only do characters with big dice pools have more chances to try before their dice pool runs out, their odds on each attempt are also bigger (because they got more dice).

Maybe there's something to be said for declaring certain tests to have a constant maximum number of dice rolls? "You need to succeed in at most 5 rolls" or something like that?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Witch, honestly doesn't make much sense to me.
"You can't ever find anyone selling this item" just sound really stupid to me, no matter how low the characters pool for that is.

Interesting... I read it as those who actually have them for sale actually sell them to others who find them quicker... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HunterHerne]

Interesting... I read it as those who actually have them for sale actually sell them to others who find them quicker... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Agreed. "I'm sorry, we just sold the last one. I hope you have better luck next time"

[Cain]

I think the real issue is that when you only have 3 dice, it is a generally held concern that you should not be able to eventually acquire an Availability 40 Item.

I disagree. Highly difficult, yes, but not impossible.

Let's say you want something nowadays with a high Availability, like a custom Ferarri. You can't walk down to Joe's Used Cars and pick one up. Heck, you can't even go to the Ferrari dealership (assuming there is even one in your town) and buy a custom one. They might be on order, sold out of that particular model, and so on. But assuming you have the cash to buy it, and are willing to wait, there's no reason why you won't eventually end up with it. Heck, at the cost of Ferraris, you might just end up ordering one from the factory.

The same basic principle applies to everything else with a high Availability. You can acquire it, assuming you have the means to pay for it outright and are willing to deal with incidental hassles. It'll just take longer.

[BishopMcQ]

A counter-mechanic that you could use:
For every doubling of the base Interval, the character gains 1 bonus die to the test. This die is included for the entire Extended Test.

This way someone with 3 dice and all the time in the world, could simply buckle down and say "this'll take awhile" and have enough dice to reliably roll the Test without Glitching.

[Aerospider]

I disagree. Highly difficult, yes, but not impossible.

Let's say you want something nowadays with a high Availability, like a custom Ferarri. You can't walk down to Joe's Used Cars and pick one up. Heck, you can't even go to the Ferrari dealership (assuming there is even one in your town) and buy a custom one. They might be on order, sold out of that particular model, and so on. But assuming you have the cash to buy it, and are willing to wait, there's no reason why you won't eventually end up with it. Heck, at the cost of Ferraris, you might just end up ordering one from the factory.

The same basic principle applies to everything else with a high Availability. You can acquire it, assuming you have the means to pay for it outright and are willing to deal with incidental hassles. It'll just take longer.

That's not how the Availability system is designed. The Availability rating only applies to shopping in the black market. If there's a dealer selling custom Ferraris and he publicises the fact then the Charisma + Negotiation test to find a willing seller is unnecessary.

[Cain]

That's not how the Availability system is designed. The Availability rating only applies to shopping in the black market. If there's a dealer selling custom Ferraris and he publicises the fact then the Charisma + Negotiation test to find a willing seller is unnecessary.

Ahem. If you read my post, you'll notice that I said, quite clearly in the example, that there isn't a dealer selling custom Ferraris in your area. Heck, since this is supposed to be a RL example, imagine trying to find one on your own. You will not be able to find a custom Ferrari at your local car dealership. I don't think you can even find anyone in your area who even deals in that sort of thing (depending on where you live, of course, If you live down the road from the factory, this may be different).

But the point is, no matter how rare the item, you can IRL track it down given enough time and effort. The same should hold true for Shadowrun.

[Aerospider]

Ahem. If you read my post, you'll notice that I said, quite clearly in the example, that there isn't a dealer selling custom Ferraris in your area. Heck, since this is supposed to be a RL example, imagine trying to find one on your own. You will not be able to find a custom Ferrari at your local car dealership. I don't think you can even find anyone in your area who even deals in that sort of thing (depending on where you live, of course, If you live down the road from the factory, this may be different).

But the point is, no matter how rare the item, you can IRL track it down given enough time and effort. The same should hold true for Shadowrun.

Ok, apologies for not reading your post right. I guess I was making a distinction between dealership (as in a business that exists to provide a product to all and sundry) and a dealer (a guy who buys and sells a product to whomever he choses, possibly not even for a living) but perhaps that's not a useful distinction to make.

In any case, I think it really can be impossible to track down a supplier in the same way that it can be impossible to shoot a small, fast-moving target because it isn't just a matter of time. If a service/product has to be hunted down I think it's implied that more is required than asking everybody you can find until someone points you in the right direction. Examples off the top of my head are people not wanting just anybody to have access to the service/product, people wanting the service/product for themselves, people not wanting to reveal their sources for free and people not wanting to become known associates of the provider. I think it's perfectly reasonable to rule that smaller DPs simply can't achieve higher thresholds (through the diminishing DP rule) on the basis that the character simply isn't good enough at persuading people to open up the necessary channels in the same way that someone with a low Pistols DP may find it impossible to hit the Reaction 9 samurai that's behind cover 200 metres away. It's not physically impossible for such a character to hit the target but he'll need Edge to pull it off. Same should apply to Availability tests.

[Mäx]

That's not how the Availability system is designed. The Availability rating only applies to shopping in the black market. If there's a dealer selling custom Ferraris and he publicises the fact then the Charisma + Negotiation test to find a willing seller is unnecessary.

Except that isn't said anywhere in the rulebooks, only stuff you can get with out availebilty test are thinks witch have no availebility, the so called "standard goods".
By the RAW everything else must be bought using the availability rules.

This ofcource is quite funny, as most stuff should be quite easy to buy, by just going for a walk to one of the dozens gear selling places mentioned in the Location books.

[Aerospider]

Except that isn't said anywhere in the rulebooks, only stuff you can get with out availebilty test are thinks witch have no availebility, the so called "standard goods".
By the RAW everything else must be bought using the availability rules.

This ofcource is quite funny, as most stuff should be quite easy to buy, by just going for a walk to one of the dozens gear selling places mentioned in the Location books.

Hmm, yes I think I may have read more than is written. Or was thinking of previous editions or something. Whichever, I'd still consider it only common sense for the GM to ignore an item's Availability rating as and when it suits his setting, even if RAW doesn't specifically say so.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Except that isn't said anywhere in the rulebooks, only stuff you can get with out availebilty test are thinks witch have no availebility, the so called "standard goods".
By the RAW everything else must be bought using the availability rules.

This ofcource is quite funny, as most stuff should be quite easy to buy, by just going for a walk to one of the dozens gear selling places mentioned in the Location books.

I'm away from book right now, but I'm almost sure that if you buy something trhough legal channels (like a heavy pistol with a real license, even if linked to a fake SIN that passed investigation) you can buy it just as soon as you can find someone who sells it legally. So, if a runner walked into Chiba asking for a Alpha Wired Reflexes, he could go to surgery right away, availabilty only works for black markets.