[X] My Assistant

[Cain]

In any case, I think it really can be impossible to track down a supplier in the same way that it can be impossible to shoot a small, fast-moving target because it isn't just a matter of time. If a service/product has to be hunted down I think it's implied that more is required than asking everybody you can find until someone points you in the right direction. Examples off the top of my head are people not wanting just anybody to have access to the service/product, people wanting the service/product for themselves, people not wanting to reveal their sources for free and people not wanting to become known associates of the provider. I think it's perfectly reasonable to rule that smaller DPs simply can't achieve higher thresholds (through the diminishing DP rule) on the basis that the character simply isn't good enough at persuading people to open up the necessary channels in the same way that someone with a low Pistols DP may find it impossible to hit the Reaction 9 samurai that's behind cover 200 metres away. It's not physically impossible for such a character to hit the target but he'll need Edge to pull it off. Same should apply to Availability tests.

Not impossible, just unlikely. There is a difference.

Edge is part of the reason for this, but let's start with a different example. Say a mage with Magic 5 wants to summon a force 12 spirit. He can't do it. Full stop, period. No matter what gear he has, no matter how much Edge he blows, he simply cannot summon a spirit with a force over 10. That is an example of impossible.

Now, hitting a small, fast-moving target? If we take this out of combat, we can assign a high threshold to the roll; let's say eight or so. If someone doesn't have enough dice: let's say a Quickness of 2 and a Pistols of 2, for four dice. So, this is impossible if Edge is not used.

As for the availability 40 test? Let's assume a character has a Charisma of 3, skill of 3. This means he has a dice pool of 6. If you use the descending dice pool rule, he should have a total of 21 dice to roll for this test. So yes, it's impossible unless he spends Edge.

The Edge caveat is important, however. That changes it from impossible to unlikely. So, if he spends a point of Edge and then burns one for a critical success, it can be done.

[Thanee]

I disagree. Highly difficult, yes, but not impossible.

Let's say you want something nowadays with a high Availability, like a custom Ferarri. You can't walk down to Joe's Used Cars and pick one up. Heck, you can't even go to the Ferrari dealership (assuming there is even one in your town) and buy a custom one. They might be on order, sold out of that particular model, and so on. But assuming you have the cash to buy it, and are willing to wait, there's no reason why you won't eventually end up with it. Heck, at the cost of Ferraris, you might just end up ordering one from the factory.

When you buy a custom Ferrarri, you do not "roll for Availability", you let the vendor do that (i.e. your Contact). Besides the AV is probably more like 10 and not 40. For me it's probably even lower, considering, there actually is a Ferrarri vendor a couple blocks from here (but they are slightly outside my budget, I'm afraid; though, to be honest, I wouldn't even want one, even if I could just buy it, there are way cooler cars out there). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The same basic principle applies to everything else with a high Availability. You can acquire it, assuming you have the means to pay for it outright and are willing to deal with incidental hassles. It'll just take longer.

How about some nuclear warheads? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Do you think everyone on earth is able to acquire one, if they really wanted to?

If so, then why has noone on earth to this day, despite numerous efforts and decades of trying, got one launched towards the USA... and we all know, that there are quite a few people out there, who wouldn't think twice about doing that, who are extremely dedicated, and even have waaaay better Contacts and funds than the average Joe can ever hope for.

Maybe because it is, for all practical purposes, basically impossible?

Bye
Thanee

[Cain]

When you buy a custom Ferrarri, you do not "roll for Availability", you let the vendor do that (i.e. your Contact). Besides the AV is probably more like 10 and not 40. For me it's probably even lower, considering, there actually is a Ferrarri vendor a couple blocks from here (but they are slightly outside my budget, I'm afraid; though, to be honest, I wouldn't even want one, even if I could just buy it, there are way cooler cars out there). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I used to live down the road from a new sports car vendor. They could order stock sports cars, but something custom and specific you had to do yourself. They might be willing to help you, but that was about it.

How about some nuclear warheads? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Do you think everyone on earth is able to acquire one, if they really wanted to?

If so, then why has noone on earth to this day, despite numerous efforts and decades of trying, got one launched towards the USA... and we all know, that there are quite a few people out there, who wouldn't think twice about doing that, who are extremely dedicated, and even have waaaay better Contacts and funds than the average Joe can ever hope for.

Maybe because it is, for all practical purposes, basically impossible?

Bye
Thanee

Oh, it's not impossible. Just very, very, very difficult. Just ask the Isrealies.

But seriously, you want to know why people haven't launched a nuke at us? Because it's very difficult to get the individual pieces you need put together without someone catching on. First, you need fissable material, which is probably at least Avail 50+ by itself. Then, you need to refine it into weapons grade plutonium. That requires a very large nuclear reactor, which is also hard to get without anyone noticing. Then you need to assemble the other components of the bomb, which is yet another Avail 50+ test. Then, you need to put the warhead together, which requires a very talented nuclear physicist. Finding people generally doesn't use the availability rules, but it'll work in this case. Finally, you need to acquire an intercontinental multi-stage rocket, which is another test at 50+ and literally requires a rocket scientist to put it together.

So, someone with enough resources and contacts could pull it off-- but outside of another government, who has that kind of power? And even then, what's the likelihood of them pulling it off without us noticing? The old USSR had that kind of power, and did make ICBM's, but we knew about it. They didn't launch it at us for various reasons.

If we're going to stick to real-world examples, there are plenty of cases of people with enough resources and power putting together nuclear weapons. They're usually government officials. So, if a private individual had money equal to the US military budget, access to high-end scientists, a big unmonitored nuclear reactor, and a personal space rocket, they could do it. Doing it without someone catching on would be significantly harder, though. But yeah: if everyone on earth had a few trillion extra dollars lying around, their own personal nuclear power plant, multiple PhD's in several advanced sciences, a few pounds of uranium in their closet, and their own space shuttle, then everyone on earth could acquire one.

[Dakka Dakka]

If you use the availability test and diminishing dice pools with the proper channels Joe Average (CHA 3 no Negotiation) will never get anything above Availability 3 without edge. Is this the intention?

On the other side of the spectrum 16 dice (not that much for a dedicated face) with average rolls (an fractions of hits) gets you over 40 Availability without Edge. Unless you glitch on one of the latter rolls.

I don't see how this mechanism remotely does what it is intended to do.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The Edge caveat is important, however. That changes it from impossible to unlikely. So, if he spends a point of Edge and then burns one for a critical success, it can be done.

Critical Success means absolutely nothing on an extended roll. 4 Successes is a Critical Success. Kind of a waste for Buring a point of Edge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
If you have 6 Dice and you burn a Point of Edge for A Critical Success, congratulations, you now have 4 successes towards your goal. Arguing that it gives you Net 4 above your Extended Roll Threshold is ludicrous. Otherwise, My character is going to get me an Aesir Satellite with a Load of Thor Shots next game session. Tell me you would allow that. I think you would not.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If you use the availability test and diminishing dice pools with the proper channels Joe Average (CHA 3 no Negotiation) will never get anything above Availability 3 without edge. Is this the intention?

On the other side of the spectrum 16 dice (not that much for a dedicated face) with average rolls (an fractions of hits) gets you over 40 Availability without Edge. Unless you glitch on one of the latter rolls.

I don't see how this mechanism remotely does what it is intended to do.

It works just fine, actually (Personally, I think that iif people are complaining about it, t may be possible that the Dice Pools at their table may be more than normally accepted for the game world; 10-12 Dice is adequate, with 15 Exceptional). That is why the non-face has contacts. To get him the things that he cannot get himself. Works just fine. Are there Edge Cases? Of course there are, but they can be dealt with when they crop up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

Critical Success means absolutely nothing on an extended roll. 4 Successes is a Critical Success. Kind of a waste for Buring a point of Edge.

Sorry, but no. A critical success is when you score 4+ successes over the threshold. So, burning Edge would grant you an automatic critical success on the first try of the extended test.

Or to put it another way: if a decker has a high enough dice pool, he might be able to probe and attack his target in one test. Heck, if his dice pool is big enough and the system is pretty wimpy, he might roll a critical success without spending Edge. That means, he scored Threshold + 4 successes in a single roll. He earned himself a critical success, fair and square.

If someone else with lesser skills and programs tried that, it may not be possible. However, with Edge spent and Edge burned he would also achieve Threshold + 4 successes in a single turn. There's absolutely no mechanical difference between the two, except that the second guy is out a lot of karma.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sorry, but no. A critical success is when you score 4+ successes over the threshold. So, burning Edge would grant you an automatic critical success on the first try of the extended test.

Or to put it another way: if a decker has a high enough dice pool, he might be able to probe and attack his target in one test. Heck, if his dice pool is big enough and the system is pretty wimpy, he might roll a critical success without spending Edge. That means, he scored Threshold + 4 successes in a single roll. He earned himself a critical success, fair and square.

If someone else with lesser skills and programs tried that, it may not be possible. However, with Edge spent and Edge burned he would also achieve Threshold + 4 successes in a single turn. There's absolutely no mechanical difference between the two, except that the second guy is out a lot of karma.

And yet, I am willing to bet, you would not allow that Burning of Edge for the outright acquisition of an Aesir Satellite (complete with spoofed payment), complete with a load of Thor Shots (After all, they have an availability threshold). Some things are just not possible, regardless of your dice pool, or how much Edge you expend/burn to get there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

+1 to what Cain said. Leaving Edge at 2 would make it excactly as using Restricted Gear in KarmaGen (without the limit of 20). Leaving Edge at 1 would make it even cheaper. Depending on how fast you can generate karma and how expensive the item in question is the socially inept character may even get the items quicker than the face, but at the expense of Karma.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein: Sure the GM can always say that an item is not available. Period. But saying, "you, no matter how much time and nuyen you throw at the problem cannot get it whereas you over there spend 3 days and have the item" is a bit too arbitrary to me.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

+1 to what Cain said. Leaving Edge at 2 would make it excactly as using Restricted Gear in KarmaGen (without the limit of 20). Leaving Edge at 1 would make it even cheaper. Depending on how fast you can generate karma and how expensive the item in question is the socially inept character may even get the items quicker than the face, but at the expense of Karma.

Which should be stomped on immediately and excessively. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
If you LIKE people at yuour table breaking the game, well, that is fine. Personally, I like a game that runs smoothly, and is not broken. These kind of shenanigans cause disharmony in the group. Stomp on them, it is the only way to be sure...

[Dakka Dakka]

Why? Mr. Lucky is a possible build. Why shouldn't someone be allowed to leave edge at a low level and occasionally burn it?

I don't see how it necessarily ruins the game. Sure with orbital satellites and nukes the game will be ruined, but that will happen no matter how they are acquired, by rolling very often, by being a character with the appropriate dice pool to get them even with the optional mechanism or by burning edge. The problem is the item itself not the mechanism of rolling for it.
There are a lot of not very unbalancing items that have high availability. Do you say the characters always have to beg the face to get those item for them or that everyone has to have CHA 5+ and Negotiation/Influence Group 5+?

[Fortinbras]

And yet, I am willing to bet, you would not allow that Burning of Edge for the outright acquisition of an Aesir Satellite (complete with spoofed payment), complete with a load of Thor Shots (After all, they have an availability threshold). Some things are just not possible, regardless of your dice pool, or how much Edge you expend/burn to get there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If my players are walking around with that much cash, I and they have bigger problems than availability tests.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Why? Mr. Lucky is a possible build. Why shouldn't someone be allowed to leave edge at a low level and occasionally burn it?

I don't see how it necessarily ruins the game. Sure with orbital satellites and nukes the game will be ruined, but that will happen no matter how they are acquired, by rolling very often, by being a character with the appropriate dice pool to get them even with the optional mechanism or by burning edge. The problem is the item itself not the mechanism of rolling for it.
There are a lot of not very unbalancing items that have high availability. Do you say the characters always have to beg the face to get those item for them or that everyone has to have CHA 5+ and Negotiation/Influence Group 5+?

It has the potential to ruin the game because it allows the circumvention of certain restrictions that may be in place, that should not be bypassed. I firmly believe that gear acquisition is one of those things.

I have gone on record as having no issues with the 3 DP character taking 6 long months to acquire something that the 16 DP Face can get in 4-5 days. I have also gone on record that I think that the Diminishing DP rule has its place, especially when time constraints are in place. What I do not care for is the use of Burnt Edge to acquire something that should not be acquireable. Yes, the rules allow it. But that mentality should be stomped on the second that it rears its ugly head.

I am very fortunate to have a high quality group at our table. This type of shennanigan just does not happen at our table. If a character is not able to reasonably acquire something, he either goes to the team face, or one of his contacts to acquire it for him. I don't care how "Lucky" you think you are, you are not going to have an Availability 40+ item just fall into your hands (especially not something that has an Availability that reaches into the 3 Digit range). It is not going to happen. At least, not at our table. When the spectre of such abuse appears, it should be mercilessly erradicated... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If my players are walking around with that much cash, I and they have bigger problems than availability tests.

Why? According to Cain, Just Burn a Point of Edge and Spoof the Money into existence... Should not be all that difficult. Inlimited Cash for your every whim... Hell, you can even do that out of Character Generation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Fortinbras]

Who is allowing their players to Spoof payments? Much less Spoof payments on an Aesir?

Whoever you are, quit it. It's not a thing.

[BishopMcQ]

Fortinbras--I believe they are using the rules for Forging from Unwired, p. 95. Or, they could have followed a slippery slope from Spoofing Lifestyles, and convinced a GM that spoofing lifestyles is just like spoofing orders at a Factory. I'd need more information from the poster to say which.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Fortinbras--I believe they are using the rules for Forging from Unwired, p. 95. Or, they could have followed a slippery slope from Spoofing Lifestyles, and convinced a GM that spoofing lifestyles is just like spoofing orders at a Factory. I'd need more information from the poster to say which.

It was a Comment for Forging (not Spoof, sorry for the Confusion there BishopMcQ). Point being, If you allow the slippery slope of "just burn an Edge point to succeed with a Critical Success," things get WAY out of hand. There MUST be controls in place to stop such Shennaigans.

[Fortinbras]

The device rating used to check an Aesir buying credstick should be off the charts! Not to mention the fact that they'll check it more than once.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The device rating used to check an Aesir buying credstick should be off the charts! Not to mention the fact that they'll check it more than once.

So... Burn an Edge and you succeed with no detection...
And really... 1.6 Billion is Chump Change for a Government. It may never even be noticed.

See that Slippery Slope Yet? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fortinbras]

A device v. device test isn't something the character is capable of carrying out, so Burning Edge is out of the question. Even on the off chance they succeed in one go, what if they check it again? Which they will. A cash transfer of that amount will surely be checked multiple times. This isn't a chewy bar you're buying, it's one of the most powerful weapons in the world. A couple of people are going to be taking a look at that investment.
I can usually dissuade my players from such shenanigans with a cat-that-ate-the-cannery grin and a sly "Are you sure?" After that the group finds a way to talk themselves out of it, thinking I'm up to something. Which I usually am.

And 1.6 Billion being chump change to a government? Someone has never been audited!
And aren't Aesir made by Ares? I know they're going to take a look at that credstick more than twice!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A device v. device test isn't something the character is capable of carrying out, so Burning Edge is out of the question. Even on the off chance they succeed in one go, what if they check it again? Which they will. A cash transfer of that amount will surely be checked multiple times. This isn't a chewy bar you're buying, it's one of the most powerful weapons in the world. A couple of people are going to be taking a look at that investment.
I can usually dissuade my players from such shenanigans with a cat-that-ate-the-cannery grin and a sly "Are you sure?" After that the group finds a way to talk themselves out of it, thinking I'm up to something. Which I usually am.

And 1.6 Billion being chump change to a government? Someone has never been audited!
And aren't Aesir made by Ares? I know they're going to take a look at that credstick more than twice!

Possibly, sure, but all you have to do is succeed. Which I think is ludicrous. And it all started with teh Burnt Edge to make that availability test. Hell, you do not even need to forge the money, just acquire it somehow, which a Burnt Edge roll will allow, if you tolerate such BS. And yes, it is BS. A PC should never have the opportunity to benefit from a Nanosecond Buyout, but according to Cain, it is only a single Burnt Edge point away. Load. Of. Crap.

When we are 14 Trillion in Debt, 1.6 Billion is less than a drop in the bucket, everything else being equal. And no, I have not been audited, but then again, I do not deal in such ludicrous amounts of money. I do not fear the auditor; many Nations cannot claim the same.

And no, I do not witness such blatant craziness at our table. Shennanigans such as this just irritate me no end. I would imagine that our table thinks much like you do... payback is a bitch, and no one is willing to take the chance the GM is up to something.

Anyways... No worries.

[Fortinbras]

I'm just saying that using the rules and setting is more useful to a GM as ignoring them. Some players see rules and find an exploit, while ignoring all the rules and safe guards set up to prevent it.
I'm saying it's reasonable that someone selling one of the most destructive weapons in the Sixth World to someone paying in cash(something that is rare and far between) is going to run that thing thru a scanner enough times to ensure it's not counterfeit. Same goes for anyone processing that amount of money though proxies or whatever. Like in Dial M for Murder.

Players respond better to having the consequences of their actions explained, rather than a fiat of "You Can't!" Additionally, it is presumed by developers that GMs will use these rational and others to prevent such exploits.

For those of you who haven't been audited, I pray you never are. The IRS will spend thousands to go after hundreds. You don't have to make very much money at all, but the government is concerned about getting it's money, regardless of how small an amount it is. It's the Broken Window philosophy.
And even in these deficit negotiations, Congressmen on both sides are now at the point of threatening walk-outs and filibusters over programs in the tens of millions, never mind the billions. Every little bit does matter, even if it doesn't seem like it.
It certainly matters to the all important nuyen ruled dystopian world of Shadowrun. It matters more if a piece of military equipment is being sold by a company, Ares, rather than a government.

And if you haven't seen Dial M for Murder, go watch it RIGHT NOW! It's awesome. Watch Strangers on a Train after that.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm just saying that using the rules and setting is more useful to a GM as ignoring them. Some players see rules and find an exploit, while ignoring all the rules and safe guards set up to prevent it.
I'm saying it's reasonable that someone selling one of the most destructive weapons in the Sixth World to someone paying in cash(something that is rare and far between) is going to run that thing thru a scanner enough times to ensure it's not counterfeit. Same goes for anyone processing that amount of money though proxies or whatever. Like in Dial M for Murder.

Players respond better to having the consequences of their actions explained, rather than a fiat of "You Can't!" Additionally, it is presumed by developers that GMs will use these rational and others to prevent such exploits.
...

And if you haven't seen Dial M for Murder, go watch it RIGHT NOW! It's awesome. Watch Strangers on a Train after that.

No doubt. As I said, We have never had this issue at the table I play at, and you are right, a simple explanation often suffices to solve these types of problems (at least most of the time).

Will have to watch Dial M for Murder... I do not think that I have seen it, though it does sound familiar.

Thanks for the Recommendation... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

So... Burn an Edge and you succeed with no detection...

Except you can't, your not taking part into that test at all.
See everytink works much better when you know the rules, instead of making up ridiculous hyperbole (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[HunterHerne]

Personally, I like the vanishing dice pool option. So you can't find it on your own, get a contact. Another solution, is to throw money at it. Remember, if you are wiling to double what you spend, you get 4 more chances. If the Cha 3, negotiation 1 character really wants his chance at the item, let him spend more to find it more easily/if at all.

Edit: I'll allow characters to increase the price they are willing to pay part way through a test. But, like using edge after your roll, you don't get the benefit before you choose. In this way, they can keep trying, even after they would fail (and maybe could earn more money in the meantime)