 Fetch me a brain, Igor, Cyberlabs and the modern mad scientist |
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 Mar 27 2004, 11:19 PM
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#1
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Decker on the Threshold  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156  |
This is sort of a continuation of my combat medic character in How to Rape your Soul. What I was wondering is, if I wanted to set up a medical/cyberware clinic as a starting character, what would be the best way to go about it? I've read through M&M pages 136-151, and through the relevant parts of the Core book about cyberware shops and the like, and I'm still confused about a number of things. What would the great gurus here recommend?
Overall, I'd say I'm willing to pay somewhere around 150k-200k :nuyen: for the whole thing. What are the essential components to something like this? Do you need to buy a warehouse (permenant Low lifestyle) to put everything in, or does the cost of the clinic itself factor that in? Is it better to get a Rating 5 basic clinic or a Rating 3 alphaware clinic, or a Rating 1 betaware clinic? Do you need to buy a cyberware shop if you have a medical clinic already? Etc etc. What skills, attributes, etc, other than eht obvious Biotech and Medicine/Chemistry/Biology skills, should be necessary for someone wanting to open up a black market hospitol? Also, say I want to upgrade the clinic later with the cash I earn. What are the upgrade proceedures? |
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Mar 27 2004, 11:31 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 264 Joined: 26-March 04 From: Houston Member No.: 6,197 |
Whoa whoa whoa...Okay, let's look at this piece by piece...
Mind you, the prices quoted are base. That's not counting the bribes you need to pay out to get the medical equipment (I'm assuming your character doesn't have liscensing/permits?), the money you pay out for staff (you can't cut someone open by your lonesome), the money you pay out for supplies and meds (self-explainatory), and the money you pay to the local 'neighborhood interest group' (read: gang) to keep fraggers from breaking into your clinic with all its stuff. I'd say a clinic was something to scimp and aspire to, otherwise you'd have a pretty shoddy jobby off the bat.
Depends on your GM, I would suppose. I'd think real estate was seperate from the other, more technical costs associated with starting up a clinic.
Ah, here we go. Before I even start...Betaware? That's a little...restricted/prohibited at start and would imply that you provide base Betaware-class or better inferior grade services at your clinic warehouse. A tempting target that clinic would be, then. This is purely speculation, you're on your own as for rating and such; go with what you want.
I would say so, yes. That's if you build the ware on site or want to have materials/facilities to repair ware on your clients. The medical clinic is just where you do the actual implant/extract.
Electronics with a bent towards Cybernetics/Microcircuitry and believe it or not, Etiquette. You'll need a lot of things to get the clinic off the ground and keep it running, being able to deal with people helps facilitate this. |
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Mar 28 2004, 01:29 AM
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#3
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
But *which* Electronics/Computers? The skills themselves, or the B/R skills? Which ones are the ones used in implanting/repairing 'ware?
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Mar 28 2004, 01:35 AM
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#4
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
implantation falls under the surgery specialization of Biotech. as for repairing, obviously you'd need the B/R skill.
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Mar 28 2004, 02:33 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 407 Joined: 22-March 04 Member No.: 6,183 |
These are included in the cost of a clinic. And the bribes and such are what S.I. is for. Still, you're going to have to shell out more than 200k for a decent clinic.
A clinic acts, besides its numerous other purposes, as a medkit equal to its rating. If you feel confident that 3 complementary dice are all you need to keep your chummers alive, then go alphaware. Beta clinics, as CardboardArmor said, aren't allowed in chargen, just as betaware isn't. Of course it's all up to your GM. As for the rest, I'm with CardboardArmor |
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Mar 28 2004, 05:14 AM
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#6
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
So what are the cybernetics spec. of Cumpoter and the cybertech skill of Electronics used for then?
Yeah, I kinda thought the betaware clinic was out. :) But most of the "keeping alive" thing will be done by the rating 6 Savior Advanced medkit, which ironically is much better than a clinic in just about every way when doing trauma surgery and "keep alive" stuff.
The problem with a basic clinic is that you really can't treat guys with alphaware, which makes up a majority of the gear your average SR metalhead has. I'm not horribly worried about the rating of the clinic, though; my guy's already rolling more than 10 dice before complementary skills, and I paid for an L2 contact to get a good, loyal nurse to help with things (maybe get that -1 mod for another doctor with Biotech 4+?). So I *think* I'l be all right there, until and unless I start branching into beta/deltaware or cultured bioware. When I get to that point though I'll hope to be able to pay the ~440k :nuyen: difference in price to upgrade to a rating 5 betaware clinic. Or am I wrong to think this? Of course the thing to *aspire* to is the Delta-grade Rating 4 hospitol: 320 MILLION nuyen! :eek: |
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Mar 28 2004, 05:41 AM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,362 Joined: 3-October 03 From: Poway, San Diego County, CA, USA Member No.: 5,676 |
I'm glad to know that I'm not the only person looking to play a classical mad scientist. I'm currently working on the third version of an insane tech wiz character who will have chemsirty, biotech, and microtronics shops, and will be proficient in chemistry, demolitions, biotech, electronics, electronics BR, and possibly computer and computer BR. He'll make all sorts of wierd gadgets, like fake credsticks with bombs hidden in them, dartgun pens, and splash grenades. He'll be like Q from James Bond, only insane.
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Mar 28 2004, 05:53 AM
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#8
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Theres one huge reason a medkit is inferior, it cant spend karma to keep you alive if it rolls bad.
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Mar 28 2004, 06:53 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 409 Joined: 9-March 04 Member No.: 6,140 |
I'm pretty sure you can't use a Savior for surgery. It does everything with chemicals and nanites. Basicaly, you just plug it into a person, and it automatically diagnoses them and injects chemicals and nanites into their bloodstream. It contains no tools for doing things on anything other than a microscopic scale, and since it's completely automated, it just rolls it's rating, rather than your biotech plus its rating as complementary dice. And therefore, as Basher noted, you can't use karma or task pool to augment tests with it since you aren't doing jack yourself. However, it makes the Savior great for self-healing, since you won't suffer the target number modifiers from having damage.
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Mar 28 2004, 07:42 AM
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#10
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Well, reading the description (MM p. 95-96) it says the Savior uses all the standard rules for a medkit. If a Savior can't be used as Complimentary dice, then neither can a normal medkit.
You're right about the surgery part; naturally you can't do trauma surgery with a medkit! I more meant "keeping alive" in the sense of stabalizing the guy, or applying first aid. It's a trade-off, I guess: you can have a good trauma ward or a passable cyberware clinic, but not both without spending lots of cash. |
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Mar 28 2004, 10:07 AM
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#11
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I've alway wanted a Valkyre unit. Jack in a rigger with a skillwires 5+, a chipjack expert driver, and decent skillsofts and you'll handsdown better the surgery skills any sawbones street Doc your fixer can set you up with. A friend currently has my R3 so i can't quote actual price/avail, but unfortunately they are fairly seriously cash. That is why "[Successfully] hijack a Doc Wagon" continues to persist on my to-do list." :S
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Mar 28 2004, 10:50 PM
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#12
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
All the nuts-and-bolts of playing a street doc haven't been mapped out as it hasn't, until now, been a major consideration.
If you look at the Street Doc and Paramedic templates under "Contacts" in the SRC, you'll need: Active Biotech Electronics Computers Computer B/R Electronic B/R Etiquette* and/or Negotiations *Maybe the "Connected" perk for goodies Knowledge Biology Chemistry Medicine Cybertechnology Bioware (if you plan to offer that kind of service) Since these are a lot of skills for any one person to have, a lot of legitimate hospitals will have teams of staff with specialists. Since you're working out of a back alley, patients can't be that picky. Of course, with skillwires, it's all good. Most importantly, you need to sit down with your GM and establish what rolls are needed for what actions beforehand. Installing cyberware? Biotech only? Repairing cyberware? Biotech + Computer B/R or Electornic B/R? Plastic surgery? Biotech + Disguise? What kinds of equipment do you need? Can I install wired reflexes in the back of a van? And so on. As it has been noted before, the exact use of Electronics (Cyberware) versus Biotech (Cyberware) tends to be a little vague. Seek your GM's input before you design your concept. [ Spoiler ] -Siege |
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Mar 28 2004, 11:06 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 409 Joined: 9-March 04 Member No.: 6,140 |
Hey, has anyone tried making an Inspector Gadget character?
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Mar 29 2004, 12:30 AM
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#14
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Heh. Glad to know that I'm being original. :D But seriously, haven't any of you thought of how useful it would be to have your own cyberware/bioware hospitol, rather than having to outsource for it? I'd never like the idea of someone untrustworthy mucking around in my head while I'm unconscious. Even without all that, I'm surprised that noone has ever tried to make a big medic character, especially in campaigns that don't allow magic in them.
Yeah, but good God they're expensive! Especially when the only real problem here is that the difference between the Computer/Electronics skills and their B/R skills are so poorly and arbitrarily defined that they could (and probably should) very easily be combined into two active skills and existing knowledge skills instead. It seems like such a waste of time inplanting skillwires just to *diagnose* cybertech problems, something that makes more sense as a knowledge skill anyway.
Hm. Telescoping arms/legs, a cyberskull with a multitool and cybereyes. Make sure to include several Flaws like Oblivious and True Believer(the Law)... this might be a good idea for a seperate thread, nwo that I think about it. :) |
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Mar 29 2004, 01:19 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 103 Joined: 2-September 03 From: San Antonio Member No.: 5,571 |
Don't forget the Otaku niece dependent and awakened pet dog.
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Mar 29 2004, 01:28 AM
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#16
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
EDIT: Formated the table. Damn TABs. Bah, Skillwires aren't that bad. Here is a copy-paste of a PC i have spreadsheeted. If i ever figured out how to get a Valkyre, this is the doc i'd want working on me. Note that you can save 50K :nuyen: on the skillwires if you go with a set that can do 4 skill/5 specialty due to the memory size savings. Better yet, for only an extra 37,500:nuyen: and +.2 essense (you'd have to squeeze out that .2 elsewhere in this example) you can have those skillwires at 5/specialize 6. Specialized skill(6) activesofts are actually 3Mp smaller, and therefore 300:nuyen: cheaper than general skill(5) chips. Specialized is fine.
Costs for the chips are: General(4) - 4800 Specialized(5) - 5000 General(5) - 7500 Specialized(6) - 7200 So on top of the 650,000:nuyen: for the Bio/Cyber an extra 100,000:nuyen: for chips 14 or so chips, and then some incidental equipment (likely about 1/4 million for all the portable shops needed), and your 'runner can return after a hard day in the sprawl of gunning people down into a MASH to piece his buddies AND his car/truck back together. The go home and from scratch build and programs a computer, before a latenight session of cooking up a few batches of explosives/corrosives/toxins for use the next day. All this without spending a single build/karma point on skills. Further he got to use all his Combat Pool for defense because he was using his Task Pool for shooting. |
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Mar 29 2004, 01:40 AM
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#17
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
BTW, assuming your are using a FirstAid Kit (12) and a Biotech, First Aid(6) specialized chip slotted into one of the 3 Expert Drivers, you are rolling 24 dice :eek: to patch your buddy back together. Karma Pool? We don't need no stinking Karma Pool. :P
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Mar 29 2004, 01:46 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 409 Joined: 9-March 04 Member No.: 6,140 |
First aid kits can only get up to rating 6. And they are rolled as complementary dice if yo use your own biotech skill. But yes, with a rating 6 biotech soft, chipjack expert driver, and a savior nanomedkit, you can do very well. Does anyone else think it's astronomically unfair that chipjack expert drivers provide a bonus that can't be duplicated by skills that a character actually knows?
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Mar 29 2004, 02:58 AM
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#19
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Sorry, i just saw someone mention a grade 12 Medkit earlier in the thread. *shrug* As for fair, well i don't know fair. I just know However expert driver do have drawbacks. You have to keep the chips jacked in the Expert Driver enabled jacks, so you lose some flexibility there. Also it is a Pool, so multiple pass during a turn eats through them fairly quickly for those tripped out 31+ Init cyber monkeys. Also riggers pretty much have to learn their Vehicle skills the old fashion way, because skillwires can't use the Control Pool. Which brings us to the meat of it, the Task Pool is often an -alternate- pool instead of a new one where there wasn't one before. Even moreso if you happen to use the optional rules for Athletics Pool and Social Pool. EDIT: BTW you can say the same thing about VCRs. No VCR? No Control Pool! |
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Mar 29 2004, 03:31 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 407 Joined: 22-March 04 Member No.: 6,183 |
They are available at a higher rating. I assume you are referring to M&M pg. 136 saying PCs can't have medical gear above rating 6. They can be gotten, it's just going to take some serious effort. |
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Mar 29 2004, 03:38 AM
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#21
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Hell yes they're nasty. And there's no real reason not to take and use them to death if you have the tech.
My character usually has Biotech just because it's too useful not to have. Couple that with the requisite tech skills and you have a pretty useful character on the fly -- but it takes a certain mindset to play a non-com in a combat-friendly world.
Well, yes. But that's what makes it Shadowrun! Seriously though, there isn't a hard and fast canon ruling. I'd still recommend talking to your GM and seeing what (s)he wants to do. And "knowledge" skills are kinda mis-labeled considering all the things you can do with Chemistry which is a Knowledge skill. And there have been entire threads devoted to the topic. And my crew (along with several others) have just combined Electronics/Electronics B/R and Computer B/R since they're all more-or-less the same skill. -Siege |
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Mar 29 2004, 03:42 AM
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#22
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
I assume they are reffering to the fact that by the rules you cannot choose the rating of a medkit on a sliding scale. There are only 2 ratings of medkits sold IIRC, a basic medkit at rating 3 and an advanced medkit at rating, I think 6. That's it.
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Mar 29 2004, 03:43 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 108 Joined: 15-September 03 From: Worcester, MA Member No.: 5,621 |
I'll make the comment that, if you follow the current errata, I believe expert drivers are limited to rating 3. (If I'm wrong, it's b/c I can't access the errata pages to double check right now). So, yes, they can provide a bonus that can't normally be duplicated. And give enough dice for one shot, one hack, one vehicle test a turn, if you want to put more than one die into a test from pool. And even for technical skills and such, a "normal user" can get an equal pool, with additional benefits, from cyber and bioware (encephalon and cerebral boosters). It's expensive, but as I said, you get more than just a pool out of it.
What's really funny is when the only character in the entire group that has biotech is the sniper, habitually stationed over 1/2 a klick from the operation. |
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Mar 29 2004, 03:50 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 407 Joined: 22-March 04 Member No.: 6,183 |
M&M's medical gear section on pg. 138 gives the cost for medkits, clinics, and hospitals of varying ratings. You can make a rating 12 medkit, It's just not freely available to PCs. You'll have to design some way of getting one. |
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Mar 29 2004, 05:16 AM
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#25
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
What's the Math SPU for? You don't really need hacking pool, and the SPU doesn't do anything else, does it? Get some reflex recorders or a trauma dampener for that guy. :) Might as well bring the bioware rate up to 4.00, or at least 3.90 Btw, you got the skillwires off the NSRG. That particular brand is 75MP, which means it can use exactly one general skill chip at a time. If you're using a bunch of specializations I'd suggest going for a 50, 100, or 150MP variety (125,000, 250,000, or 375,000 :nuyen: ). Of course, you can't have all four cybernetics specializations loaded without 200MP skillwires, which comes out to exactly half a million :nuyen: . Just for the wires. That's why I was going on about skillwires not being worth it. By the by, about the router and interconnectivity issues: do chipjacks have three free router ports like datajacks do, since they're "specialized type of [datajacks]" (p. 298 SR3) themselves? And, if so, do multislot chipjacks get three free router ports per jack, as, "Each chip slot acts as a seperate chipjack." (p. 21 M&M)? |
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