[X] My Assistant

[Draco18s]

We already have a sort of tyranny. GDs and IEs are effectively untouchable as they tend to retaliate in a rather draconic fashion thus they are free to do whatever pleases them. The only thing barring them from ToWoDo is the fact that they have an even more uneasy time with one another. But there IS room for a powershift and we all know that a dramaturgical imperative could easily achieve that. Heck it wouldn't even attack the suspend of disbelief as this is much MORE believable than a bunch of maniac halfgods not willing to wipe out the vermin to have much more room for their own affairs.

So you're unhappy with the status quo and want someone to die in order to....maintain the status quo?

[StevenAngier]

No, I'm not unhappy with the status quo. In fact, in all of humanities history, there were elites of some sort which tried to set themselves apart by any means possible. It doesn't matter if they are a monetary or ideological elite or biological like GD and IEs. I just pretend that they don't exist stay away from their affairs and mind my own business pretending that it is as world changing as theirs.

[Wakshaani]

Back to the topic at hand, if we assume SIrrug is the situation that triggers the divide, with he and Hestaby as 'team captains' for Anti and Pro Metahumanity, respectively ... who joins which?

(For now, Lofwyr sits out. He ha stoo much to do, and will wind up coming out on whichever side looks to win, proving him the greatest dragon all along. Also, he gets a share of the defeated dragons' loot.)

[StevenAngier]

I'd say the smaller/younger ones will team up with Hestaby while the older players will side with Sirrug.

[HunterHerne]

Actually it wasn't singlehandedly, Sirrurg was with a lot of drakes, dracoforms, spirits, sapient critters, etc, etc, etc.
And considering the fact that a Great Dragon was hit once by an orbital laser AND SURVIVED, I don't see what is the problem of Dragons attacking military bases and surviving.

Sure, Alamais survived, but like has been said, he was forced to stop. I think an equally valid example is Nachtmeister. He was shot by an orbital laser, and died. Although it was after gaining the upper hand in a direct battle with Lofwyr.

And then there is Firschwinge. She was reportedly destroyed in a nuclear expolsion (though no one can claim they are 100% sure)

[Stahlseele]

Feuerschwinge was shot down by missles from jets over the sox. And survived.
She was then some years? later napalm bombed and we are not sure if she's dead.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Sure, Alamais survived, but like has been said, he was forced to stop. I think an equally valid example is Nachtmeister. He was shot by an orbital laser, and died. Although it was after gaining the upper hand in a direct battle with Lofwyr.

And then there is Firschwinge. She was reportedly destroyed in a nuclear expolsion (though no one can claim they are 100% sure)

There is also Aden that leveled Teeran alone when muslims began killing metahumans. Sure, hedid that and went away, before any retaliation could be brought to face him, but it just shows that Dragons, specially the Great Ones, are not to be messed lightly with.

This post has been edited by Brazilian_Shinobi: Jun 28 2011, 12:26 AM

[Sengir]

Back to the topic at hand, if we assume SIrrug is the situation that triggers the divide, with he and Hestaby as 'team captains' for Anti and Pro Metahumanity, respectively ... who joins which?

Hmmm, I dunno. The idea of dragons duking it out over the fate of mankind just seems a bit...over the top

As far as the "high magic" plots go, I'm a hardcore matrix fan and thus would love to see some more techno-centric plots. However, plots about ancient munchkinmagic offer one undeniable advantage: Technology can be used by everyone and in a setting full of industrial espionage would easily be copied and reverse engineered, thus controlling the spread of a technology in the universe often leads to massive hand waving (like the supposedly unbreakable DRM on nanoforges). Magic on the other hand can easily be explained as "it's extremely powerful magic, only grade >20 Initiates stand any chance to use it without frying themselves".

[Stahlseele]

There is also [insert forgotten name here] that leveled Teeran alone when muslims began killing metahumans. Sure, he/she did that and went away, before any retaliation could be brought to face him/her, but it just shows that Dragons, specially the Great Ones, are not to be messed lightly with.

Sirrurg - The Destroyer.

[LurkerOutThere]

No actually that would be Aiden.

Aiden pulling their schtick when no one understood magic at all made asense, ghostwalker and sirrug doing it in the game "now" when magic is understood it's just a matter of force is turning the game more and more into magic run.

[Stahlseele]

Ack, Aden, of course, sorry, my mistake x.x

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Yes, Aden. Now, I don't have a problem with Ghostwalker going all Godzila in Aztlan-controled Denver. He showed up out of nowhere and possibly summoned a lot of bound spirits and spirits owing him favor or whatever...
I do have a problem with Aztlan and all the other players in Denver accepting like nothing happened.
I mean, just the fact that CAS took control over Aztlan territory it would mean war by the articles in the Denver Treaty...

[CanRay]

Aiden pulling their schtick when no one understood magic at all made asense, ghostwalker and sirrug doing it in the game "now" when magic is understood it's just a matter of force is turning the game more and more into magic run.

They're still multiton beasts of immense physical and financial power with a long-term view that cannot be conceived by any metahuman (Even IEs) whatsoever.

Just thinking they have magic is sorely mistaking the potential for Dragons of all types, and Great Dragons especially!

[Wakshaani]

WHat's this about Nightmaster being laser-shot while *beating* Lofwyr?

No writeup I've ever seen has said this.

All of them talk about how Nightmaster and Lofwyr threw down, with Lofwyr winning and Nightmaster falling fro the sky. Lofwyr's forces quickly cordoned off the area and nothing about what happened to the corpse (If he was, in fact, dead) has ever been mentioned.

[LurkerOutThere]

They're still multiton beasts of immense physical and financial power with a long-term view that cannot be conceived by any metahuman (Even IEs) whatsoever.

Just thinking they have magic is sorely mistaking the potential for Dragons of all types, and Great Dragons especially!

Actually Sirrug can basically be described as hulk smash of the SR set, he's not noted for his financial acumen or tactical genius. Similarly ghostwalker pretty much went godzilla, then after the fact they sketched in backroom deals.

[CanRay]

Actually Sirrug can basically be described as hulk smash of the SR set, he's not noted for his financial acumen or tactical genius. Similarly ghostwalker pretty much went godzilla, then after the fact they sketched in backroom deals.

From what we've seen.

From what we've seen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

Anyhow, Sirrug is probably in his cave, wishing for the "Good Old Days" when the lesser races weren't so uppity. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) As for Ghostwalker, he woke up, found his brother dead, found a CITY where his land was, and then found his ancient enemy as a major part of that city. Is it any wonder he went Godzilla and took names?

[imperialus]

No actually that would be Aiden.

Aiden pulling their schtick when no one understood magic at all made asense, ghostwalker and sirrug doing it in the game "now" when magic is understood it's just a matter of force is turning the game more and more into magic run.

Really? I would peg the high point for "magic run" with a major focus on the immortals as being in late 1st early 2nd ed when there was the Harlequin series, followed by the Insect spirit invasion, the Aztechnology sourcebook ect.

After that Shadowrun took a decidedly techy focus which it has maintained until now... Renraku Archology, Otaku, 2nd crash, AI's becoming a playable 'race' ect.

We might be seeing the pendulum swing in the other direction, though I'd suggest it first started to move in the Dawn of the Artifacts series, but what's wrong with that? Shadowrun has always been about tech and magic. In all honesty, if someone at CGL has a great idea for a plot line involving great dragons battling each other I'd say run with it. If nothing else it'll be an interesting shakeup and something different than yet another corp and/or mob war. I mean what else are they going to do on the techy side? Bring Deus back? No thanks.

[Ascalaphus]

Yes, Aden. Now, I don't have a problem with Ghostwalker going all Godzila in Aztlan-controled Denver. He showed up out of nowhere and possibly summoned a lot of bound spirits and spirits owing him favor or whatever...
I do have a problem with Aztlan and all the other players in Denver accepting like nothing happened.
I mean, just the fact that CAS took control over Aztlan territory it would mean war by the articles in the Denver Treaty...

I don't think they accepted it like nothing happened.. but the writers got a bit distracted with the transition to SR4 and its somewhat different style.

The way I see it is this: all of a sudden, a dragon pops out of an astral rift left behind by former UCAS president Dunkelzahn, then surprise-attacks the Aztlan section. Aztlan tries to scramble military support to Denver, but they have to pass through CAS and PCC territory to get there, and those two countries hate Aztlan. So Aztlan can't retaliate immediately, and this is when the politics gets going in earnest. Nadia Daviar operates as some sort of go-between towards the UCAS government, and Ghostwalker promises every signatory to Denver except Aztlan that they'll like how he runs Denver.
Before he got there, they all hated Denver: it was a bureaucratic nightmare, and insanely expensive to maintain their presence. Kind of like post-WWII Berlin if the Chinese and Israelis had also gotten a sector. After the original treaty of Denver, Aztlan had stabbed the NAN in the back, and they've always been at odds with the CAS. And Aztlan has basically subverted any treaty or international organization they've been involved with, so everyone dislikes them.
So when Aztlan comes crying to the rest of the Denver signatory countries saying Ghostwalker is mean to them, the rest just shrugged and said they had it coming.
Now Ghostwalker runs Denver, keeps the peace, and all the countries are cheaper off; they don't need quite as big an army in Denver, the bureaucracy moves faster. And if anything goes wrong, they just say "Hey, it's a Great Dragon, what can we do?" Politicians love a good excuse to hide behind.

So, to summarize: Ghostwalker beat in the door with brute force, but he stays because he's politically expedient for everyone except Aztlan, and everyone hates Aztlan anyway.

[hobgoblin]

And Spy Games seems to indicate shit happening behind the curtains in Denver anyways.

[Ascalaphus]

The original treaty of Denver is built on a political situation when Aztlan was still part of the NAN. It was due for renegotiation anyway.

[CanRay]

The original treaty of Denver is built on a political situation when Aztlan was still part of the NAN. It was due for renegotiation anyway.

Having a Dragon evict them from the city certainly did that.

[Ascalaphus]

I recall some vague references suggesting it was up for renegotiation after X years anyway, but that Ghostwalker puts a whole new spin on those negotiations.