Swift and Terrible, or is it just terrible? Options

[DamienKnight]

The Way of the Adept introduces a new power for each Way to choose, exclusive to that way. This includes awesome powers like 'Unseen Hands' and 'Sorcerous Parry'.

For the arguably most point saving Way, the Warrior's Way, the new power is called 'Swift and Terrible'.

Swift and Terrible
Cost: 0.5 per level
Warrior’s Way Adepts Only
Warrior cultures around the world glorify in crushing foes in
close combat, and adepts with this power are emboldened toward
greater victory or are more swi ly able to reposition tactically every
time they best a foe. For every enemy combatant beaten in close
combat (be it armed or unarmed) during a single combat round, apply
a +1 to the adept’s Initiative attribute (to a limit of levels taken in this
power) for the next round only.

Is it just me, or is this power completely useless? A boost to Initiative Attribute has virtually no effect in combat. Best case scenario, your adept went last in sequence, then after dropping a few, he starts going first in sequence. This seems like a totally worthless power to me. Someone show me what I am missing.

Combat Sense gives a constant +1/rating bonus to all defensive tests, and adds to reaction for surprise tests. This is a nice power, and costs the same as swift and terrible. In the spirit of Combat Sense, our gaming group has decided to houserule Swift and Terrible. Now instead of getting +1 initiative per rating per enemy dropped, it now awards 1 combat pool per rating/enemy dropped. This is an expendable pool that can be used for defense or attack.

When a player was selling this idea to me he used Equilibrium as an example. The scene where Bale's character gets in a sword fight with 5 guys and drops them all, then reflexively deflects a bullet with his sword at the end. The idea being that with momentum, or through going deeper and deeper into a fighting Zen, the Adept draws upon their innate magic and focus to perform amazing stunts.

This power seems very reasonable to me. A runner is unlikely to drop more than two or three opponents throughout a fight, which does not add up to alot of dice. (significantly less than just using combat sense every time they are attacked), and fixes a really useless new power from the Adept book.

Please share your thoughts!

[Kerenshara]

I looked at this and frankly I think one of two things happened:

1. The DEVs didn't word it in a way that would make it as useful as the other "Way"-specific powers (said another way: they meant it to come out differently)
2. The DEVs laid an egg

I'm not sure which I'm more inclined toward on that power. Honestly, I'm relieved somebody else had the same response I did...

-Kerenshara

[HunterHerne]

Judging from what the Way of the Warrior has as discountable powers (I don`t have the book), I think this may be a much weaker ability for "balance" reasons.

[Fyndhal]

Adepts have always had a mixture of hit and miss Powers. This one falls on the side of "Miss."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I looked at this and frankly I think one of two things happened:

1. The DEVs didn't word it in a way that would make it as useful as the other "Way"-specific powers (said another way: they meant it to come out differently)
2. The DEVs laid an egg

I'm not sure which I'm more inclined toward on that power. Honestly, I'm relieved somebody else had the same response I did...

-Kerenshara

Critias could tell you. He is the sole author of The Way of the Adept. I actually like it (the Power), mainly becasue it is NOT just another overpowered Adept ability for Warrior Way Adepts.

[Pendaric]

I would say the warrior way discount to enhances reflexs makes this a nice icing on the cake without making it game breaking.

[Critias]

I would say the warrior way discount to enhances reflexs makes this a nice icing on the cake without making it game breaking.

Which is pretty much what I was going for.

Warriors are already fast. But they're -- unless they dip into cyber -- not the fastest. With Swift and Terrible, they can catch up a little of that slack, and potentially blow even a speed sammy out of the water. But just saying "here you go, be faster" lacks a bit of character and doesn't fit (imo) the desire to prove themselves in conflict that Warriors have to deal with, or in other words didn't feel very adepty. What's more, I thought it would be a fun way to encourage adepts to engage in melee combat (and reward them for doing so), be it unarmed or weapon-based. What's more, as has been pointed out already, Warriors get some pretty hefty discounts, and part of that balancing act was the introduction of new powers. Where several other Ways got basically Way-specific Kinesics, I obviously couldn't sneak in a power that gave Warriors +1 to five or six different combat skills per .5 power point spent -- and so, like Speakers, I wanted to take their specific power in a different direction, and make it something really kind of unique.

If you jump a bunch of dudes and pull some flashy crap to split your pool and drop a few of them, when the first actual combat round rolls around, you're going to be that much quicker. Or even in the first round of a normal combat if you drop several guys, you'll get that little extra help you need to then be able to move and engage someone else (or duck around a corner, or whatever) the next init roll. If you think your Warrior doesn't need the help, there's no one holding a gun to your head and telling you to take it. If you're a melee guy that can one-shot anything in the game thanks to double-or-triple dipping into awesome stuff like Improved Ability, Weapon Foci, Killing Hands, Elemental Attack, Critical Strike, or Attuned weapons? Well, here's a way to not just fling a few more measly dice or do a teensy bit more damage, but to ameliorate part of the "melee guy" weakness, giving you the opportunity to kick (or stab) some ass, and then make sure you go first so you don't just get ruthlessly gunned down at the start of the next turn.

Take it or leave it, house rule it, ignore it, do what you want to do. *shrugs* But those were my thoughts behind it, and most folks I've talked to about the book seem to like it. I like the idea of a "combat pool" boost as well, but it's a little above my pay grade and the scope of the book I wrote to go re-introducing earlier editions' concepts into a $5 pdf product.

[Rubic]

First strike is usually the biggest deciding factor in any combat; this power really IS tailored for an ambush/surprise attack. If you can't take down or hobble the targets enough in the first two rounds, then you PROBABLY shouldn't be in melee, anyways. Not bad, Critias, though definitely a power for aficionados. I may have to try this if I ever get to play as other than GM again...

[TheOOB]

I feel like there are a large number of powers way higher on my list than this one, which means I'd likely not take it unless I was already fairly powerful...but then again that may be the point. It defiantly gets better the stronger you are.

[Makki]

I like the idea, but not the price. 0.25/lvl should probably do it

[Glyph]

I don't know - one of the things I like about Shadowrun is that some things are more optimal than others. Overall, it's not one of the must-haves like combat sense, but it's not useless, either. I do appreciate that it is clearly stated - there are some powers, like nerve strike or elemental strike, that are very frustrating, because their descriptions are muddled and unclear.

[Badmoodguy88]

I like how you can come up with odd combinations to make some powers useful.

[Mongoose]

I like the idea, but not the price. 0.25/lvl should probably do it

That, or if it added +1 to the adepts current and next turn initiative SCORE.

[Glyph]

That, or if it added +1 to the adepts current and next turn initiative SCORE.

It adds to the Initiative Attribute, which means you get +1 to your Initiative score and an extra die per level. In other words, if you increase your Initiative Attribute from 12 to 13, then your initiative next round changes from 12d6 + 12 to 13d6 + 13.

[Manunancy]

My reading on it is that you get the bonus for every opponent you've bested - you don't need to have dropped the ennemy, only to have beaten his own score (wether attacking or defending).

[LurkerOutThere]

You know, it is alright if not all powers are gosh darn amazing, just saying. There might be some backgrounds or builds it works for.

[DamienKnight]

I like the idea of a "combat pool" boost as well, but it's a little above my pay grade and the scope of the book I wrote to go re-introducing earlier editions' concepts into a $5 pdf product.

The author liked my idea, I am vindicated. Thanks Critias.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

What I would do:
Make it an immediate gain, and last a number of rounds equal to level bought. AND make it cost less. 0.25 /level seems quite alright.

The way it is worded, it might be interpreted to activate whenever you hit an opponent in melee, instead of actually dropping him.

[Makki]

1) Description says "beaten during a single combat round" => So I don't have to do multi-attacks, as Critias would like me to do, I can just "beat" 4 guys with my 4 IPs
2) If I have 4 IPs it's most likely I have the highest Initiative score of all combatants already, so what is the power's boost good for?
3) If I can beat three or four guys within the first round, will there even be a second combat round? Assuming the Sam and the mage took down another 3 guys, how big has the opposition to be? Oo
4) What does "beat" actually mean? Hit? Damage? Incapacitate?

[Critias]

1) Description says "beaten during a single combat round" => So I don't have to do multi-attacks, as Critias would like me to do, I can just "beat" 4 guys with my 4 IPs

I wouldn't "like" you to do anything, I was just pointing out that ambush scenarios were a potentially good time to use it. Because melee-oriented Adepts are often so good at being one trick ponies that they can split their pool and still win fights.

2) If I have 4 IPs it's most likely I have the highest Initiative score of all combatants already, so what is the power's boost good for?

You might, but you might not. *shrugs* No one's holding a gun to your head and telling you to buy it, if you think you don't need it.

3) If I can beat three or four guys within the first round, will there even be a second combat round? Assuming the Sam and the mage took down another 3 guys, how big has the opposition to be? Oo

That depends on the GM, and is (continuing) to be based on your assumption of taking down three or four guys. The power is there if you want it, or not there if you don't. If you want a speed boost to get to cover after pulling off some crazy kung-fu shit, buy it. If not, don't.

4) What does "beat" actually mean? Hit? Damage? Incapacitate?

To successfully hit someone in close combat, whether it be trouncing them in the opposed roll, or catching 'em with their pants down in an ambush scenario. It's not necessary to kill or knock out your targets (though with a dedicated close-combat guy, it can be pretty easy).

Again: I'm aware the power is situational, and many of the other Way-specific powers aren't. That was pretty much my intent. Warriors get some of the fattest discounts, I didn't think they needed the most versatile and points-efficient Way-specific power, too. I imagine the uproar would be quite a bit worse if I gave them "Killing Machine," and it worked like Kinesics for a combat skill group, wouldn't it? I wanted something a little different for them, that can potentially ameliorate a weakness of a dedicated melee build (being stuck standing in the open after pulling off your crazy kung-fu shit, and getting shot down).

Buy it or don't, house rule it to your heart's content, do whatever you want with it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No Worries Critias... I actually like this Adept Ability. It has flavor. As has been said before, not every Adept power has to be SuperWhamaDyne to be useful or interesting... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[stu_pie]

I just rewrote my Adept to have the warrior way (our GM lets use change our characters slightly when new books come out, because he's nice like that) I like the power, it's little costly but I took it because I found it fitted my character (like the idea the more he fights the better he gets) also felt it a nice balance to the discount Warrior way gets (which was 25% off all my power but one)... Overall good job. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Cant please everyone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sqir666]

I personally like Swift and Terrible, I've even built a Norse bear sark with that power.

The only Way I can't seem to wrap my head around though is The Magician's Way Quality. Could someone please explain that one to me in PM?

[Critias]

I personally like Swift and Terrible, I've even built a Norse bear sark with that power.

The only Way I can't seem to wrap my head around though is The Magician's Way Quality. Could someone please explain that one to me in PM?

Feel free to respond via PM if you really want to, but I'd just as soon has things out here (and then, potentially, update the FAQ), so that other folks who might also have a question can read along.

What exactly is it you're confused about?

[sqir666]

Feel free to respond via PM if you really want to, but I'd just as soon has things out here (and then, potentially, update the FAQ), so that other folks who might also have a question can read along.

What exactly is it you're confused about?

I think it has something to do with the wording of how it interacts with Metamagic in relation to another another Way.