[X] My Assistant

[Daddy's Litt...]

I cannot find it in 4th ed so i do not know if it is still true but in the older Ed's of SR trolls and Orks had a fairly short lifespan, only about 40 -50 years. Is that still in place or did the game designers decide it made too many problems?

I was thinking about age related limitations like joining the military or buying a beer. An Ork or Troll would be fully mature at 14 and maybe past their prime at 18-21. Or an "adult" ork allowed to buy beer for his school age friends? Or even counter-discrimination The ork can get a beer but his human buddies have to settle for Slurm.

[CanRay]

No change has been stated, so I figure it's still the same.

This makes for some serious problems as any Ork or Troll with ID (And you better bet the stores card every Ork and Troll! They'd lose their license otherwise!) will show they're underage. Minimum age has not changed yet, and a lot of Orks and Trolls point out that this is a form of discrimination towards not just their own metatypes, but humans as well. Elves and Dwarves have less of an issue in waiting to drive/drink/military service, and so on.

On the "Bright Side", SINless Orks and Trolls (And fast-growing Humans) can sign up with the military (No ID, remember? And "They look like they're old enough.") and get a legal SIN after serving a few tours of duty in the worst places the military can find for them.

Also, I've had some signs in the Barrens say: "Must be 21 or big enough to beat up the bouncer to drink here!", so that answers that question nicely. Which also allows Pup the Dog Shaman to drink without being carded despite being a rather scrawny kid.

[HunterHerne]

Yes, it has been mentioned. In Corporate Guide (the only reference I remember where I got it...), in the Evo section, it says that Evo has a proclivity for treating metatypes as adults at different ages, based on their actual (percieved) lifespan. I believe Trolls are adults at 15, humans 18, Dwarves 21, Elves a staggering 28, and Orks at 13. But, my copy was corrupted, so I may be mistaken on the exacts.

[Snow_Fox]

Biologically that makes sense but we're back the DLN's idea then of ork kids being very popular with their human peer group-
Sure Bill you can join us at the party- so long as you go in and buy the beer.

[Christian Lafay]

Biologically that makes sense but we're back the DLN's idea then of ork kids being very popular with their human peer group-
Sure Bill you can join us at the party- so long as you go in and buy the beer.

Acceptance through necessity.

[CanRay]

The funny part is, you'd think Humanis would be right behind letting Orks and Trolls get licenses and ability to buy alcohol at their physically mature age when they're not mentally mature enough to realize that the two don't mix...

But they don't.

[Eimi]

The funny part is, you'd think Humanis would be right behind letting Orks and Trolls get licenses and ability to buy alcohol at their physically mature age when they're not mentally mature enough to realize that the two don't mix...

But they don't.

The fact that Orks and Trolls are treated the same as Humans by (most) state systems as regards their ages is one of the more valuable weapons in the Humanis propaganda arsenal. Namely, the fact that fully grown Orks and Trolls are in the same schools as your teenage children, and just think what they'll do to them. Primarily used in regards to the threats of violence, but the boogieman of the fully grown Ork taking advantage of your thirteen year old daughter probably makes it onto more than a few pamphlets, too.

The propaganda benefits outweigh the ideological satisfaction of seeing Orks and Trolls tossed out of public school for being adults when they're in their mid-teens. Or letting them legally drink and drive.

[Nath]

Corporate Guide also features what may be a retcon attempt on ork life expectancy.

Corporate Guide, page 79
Another complication arose in 2064, when Shibanokuji revealed that he was suffering from Methuselah’s Syndrome, a genetic condition common in goblinized orks, and was aging at an accelerated pace.

The first, second and third edition corebooks gave a 35-40 years lifespan for orks. In the fourth edition, it is now 35-45 years. As goblinization occurred on 2021, the oldest born orks were 29 years old in 2050 (1st edition), 32 in 2053 (2nd edition), 39 in 2060 (3rd edition) and 49 in 2070 (4th edition). So any difference between goblinized orks (born humans) and born orks may weight a lot on the given average lifespan.

[suoq]

That and orks have their odd allergic reaction to warehouse fires.

[Wakshaani]

Yeah, in my games, there was a Humanis push on to declare metahumans non-human (temporarily!) before they could be re-classified on their metatype. It was being sold as a positive for the Orks and waving the Elven boogeyman around.

"Currently, Orks are required to go to school until 18, despite reaching adulthood at 13, and will be paying into social security for their entire lives, dying in their 40s while old and withered and never having drawn a dime. Meanwhile, Elves begin to draw at 65, despite being in perfect health and still having a hundred years, or more, of drawing off the taxpayer's hard-earned money! It's unfair to us, unfair to them, and, at the end of the day, wrong.

We at Humanis have a plan to fix this, allowing for Orks to enter the workforce when they reach physical maturity and to begin drawing retirement benefits at 35, when their bodies begin the slide into old age. We have tried to pass this law in the past, and indeed, passed it we did, but the Supreme Court found it unconstitutional, that we cannot discriminate *for* a metatype, as all legal classifications for 'Human' are nore read as 'Metahuman' and thus they hav eto have equal treatment, despite their inequal lifespans. As such, we have to pass a constitutional ammendment to have them declared non-human, so that we can set forth and fix this travesty of justic once and for all. Join us, and help make the UCAS a fair society."

(Wow, I'm tired. That was horrible. But, gist of it all.)

[HunterHerne]

Yeah, in my games, there was a Humanis push on to declare metahumans non-human (temporarily!) before they could be re-classified on their metatype. It was being sold as a positive for the Orks and waving the Elven boogeyman around.

"Currently, Orks are required to go to school until 18, despite reaching adulthood at 13, and will be paying into social security for their entire lives, dying in their 40s while old and withered and never having drawn a dime. Meanwhile, Elves begin to draw at 65, despite being in perfect health and still having a hundred years, or more, of drawing off the taxpayer's hard-earned money! It's unfair to us, unfair to them, and, at the end of the day, wrong.

We at Humanis have a plan to fix this, allowing for Orks to enter the workforce when they reach physical maturity and to begin drawing retirement benefits at 35, when their bodies begin the slide into old age. We have tried to pass this law in the past, and indeed, passed it we did, but the Supreme Court found it unconstitutional, that we cannot discriminate *for* a metatype, as all legal classifications for 'Human' are nore read as 'Metahuman' and thus they hav eto have equal treatment, despite their inequal lifespans. As such, we have to pass a constitutional ammendment to have them declared non-human, so that we can set forth and fix this travesty of justic once and for all. Join us, and help make the UCAS a fair society."

(Wow, I'm tired. That was horrible. But, gist of it all.)

Huh. That actually sounds like a good idea to run in the background of my campaign for a while. Something to go alongside the pro-ghoul political activities I've had going on.

[Snow_Fox]

It is scary that makes so much sense.
The down side is that they will have less education limiting their job potential but still, fireghteningly effective in its valid points.

[CanRay]

It is scary that makes so much sense.
The down side is that they will have less education limiting their job potential but still, fireghteningly effective in its valid points.

Which is the real reason they're trying to push it through. Keep the Orks at low-paying, menial jobs that "Best benefit their natural talents", namely, "Lifting and carrying heavy stuff."

[Badmoodguy88]

Fluff from any one SR novel is not necessarily truthful canon. It is one authors vision. Allowing for some characters to be wrong in there conclusions or for the impression they give to be a little off. What is true in one case is not always true and so on.

Anyway one of the early SR novels I forget which, had orcs healthy for most of there lives and then rapidly aging as they near the end. My guess is the last decade but that is a guess but maybe less maybe they are fine for most of there lives and then go down hill in the last 5 years. In the book I read there was an old ork (a timeline problem really, as someone else pointed out what the oldest orks would be) ((I remeber now it was something about the old orc being human before being orc, so his daughter an orc her full life looks about as old or older than he did.)). From his case you get the impression they got weaker, lost teeth like old men, and were a little slower of wit, and tired. In short all the signs of aging.

I Picture the orc life span getting through the early stages just a little faster than humans. Puberty ending on average at 11 instead of about 14. Bones stop most of there growth at 15 instead of 22. And then an extended middle age. Slowly becoming more seasoned. For most of there lives looking like well aged action heroes in an arc from young to middle aged and then leaping to old age rather fast. I don't picture them looking like full grown adults at age 13, like hard boiled mercers sprung full grown from the head of Zeus. It does make is seem all the more unfair to orcs. They get so little time in their prime. But I guess that is why there are options for fighting old age in the book: either gene tech or a spirit pact. Not that most people could afford it, but still old ork PC and NPC's don't need to die of old age.

Still they say 35-45 is the average and orcs are a disenfranchised population. Living in squalor and eating bad food more often than humans, that and there is sudden acute lead poisoning. Average age includes the people that don't die of old age. 50, 55, even 60 might not be out of the question for a fairly average middle class healthy orc living a life with access to heart bypasses and a shortage of bullets in the at me direction.

[Bigity]

Honestly I have yet to see any fluff stating that orks or trolls or whatever mature mentally any faster than regular humans. So they might hit physical adulthood sooner, but mentally? I doubt ork or troll culture is distinct enough to allow for equivalent mental maturity faster than anyone else.

Those living in more metahuman biased places very well might though. Especially ones founded/run by orks and trolls.

There is always leonization (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Inu]

In my own game, I play orks and trolls as aging not just faster, but differently to humans. They're not just 'humans who are big and strong and age fast', they're orks and trolls. They're different.

So, an ork hits physical maturity in most ways (is more or less adult size, etc) by 12. They keep maturing (putting on muscle mass, bones getting heavier, etc) until 16, as opposed to humans who do pretty much both those things at once. Emotionally, they'lre mature in many ways by 12 (able to cope with the idea of fighting, breeding and defending the tribe), but are prone to rash thinking, anger and other foibles of immaturity. As they grow they might start to slow down, reaching more or less 'adult' emotional maturity at 18.

The basis for all this is thinking back to a sort of evolutionary sociology/psychology. Orks strike me as very much a species centered around constant war, particularly with the short gestations and multiple births. Ork evolution has produced individuals that are disposable. So by 12, you have an individual who's capable of fighting (and willing to fight) and also of making more orks before they die in glorious battle. A 12-year-old ork, while not as strong and tough as a 16-year-old, is still great cannon fodder. If they survive those first few turbulent years, they're full size and weight and with a bit more thoughtfulness, still aggressive but more able to take responsibility. By 18-20, they're ready to take on older roles in the community, including commanding all the little squirts who have grown up since. This is a role that takes a bit more steadiness of mind, whereas all you need out of a 12-year-old is a grunt.

It's just what makes sense to me in terms of ork development in prior ages. Child - cannon fodder - sergeant - officer.

The trolls in my game are a bit different, because I personally bend trolls more towards 'gentle giants' rather than mean machines, so they have a different development cycle.

[Badmoodguy88]

That is an interesting take on things. It is kind of appealing, but then again there is culture and biology. A lot of us go off to war at 18-19. There are plenty of stories from not all that long ago of people lying and going off to fight at 15. In ancient times that age probably goes down further. When hunting is a day to day thing you have the skills. Also you are not saddled with moral hangups about killing in your culture, if it is on the field of battle! Much the opposite, it is glorious*.

So a 12 year old orc might fight but they might be like a 15 year old human as far how far they are along their development. But like a 15 year old human a 12 year old ork is not as strong as they will be. It is just that orcs are so very tough and strong that even an adolescent can sling on body armor and hold up a stuffer shack with a shot gun. Actually a 12 year old human can do that :\ Fortunately few 12 year olds in this culture are inclined to do something so self destructive. Stories of child solders in war torn parts of Africa come to mind at this point.

*(How glorious ancient cultures actually thought battle was is probably over stated but there seems to be examples of it, Vikings for one. I guess if it is something you are expected to do in your culture, your culture should encourage you to do it.)

[CanRay]

As I'm in a city with a number of former child soldiers...

No, I'll shut up, I don't know any of them.

[EKBT81]

Honestly I have yet to see any fluff stating that orks or trolls or whatever mature mentally any faster than regular humans. So they might hit physical adulthood sooner, but mentally? I doubt ork or troll culture is distinct enough to allow for equivalent mental maturity faster than anyone else.

I don't see that either.

In my own game, I play orks and trolls as aging not just faster, but differently to humans. They're not just 'humans who are big and strong and age fast', they're orks and trolls. They're different.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I like to envision Shadowrun's metahumans as much closer to "baseline humans" than their namesakes in other ("pure fantasy") rpgs. They are still homo sapiens after all and most grew up in modern human-dominated societies.

Probably why I really like pictures like the gunslinger adept in the core book or the suit-clad ork at the beginning of the Seattle 2072 politics chapter.

[CanRay]

All the Metatypes come from a Human-based society, with the exception of Elves who have "rediscovered their ancient culture" and so on.

I'm pretty sure that a lot of elves that didn't grow up in the Tir lands are not exactly happy with the situation. I know Nas has a tendency of punching Elves in the face when they speak Sperethiel to him. "I'm from TEXAS! Speak American, damnit!"

...

He also knows Mexican and Aztlaner Spanish.

[The Shuhite]

in one of the books one of the comentor's sigs was "25 to life, for an ork there the same thing". That line brought it home for me

[CanRay]

in one of the books one of the comentor's sigs was "25 to life, for an ork there the same thing". That line brought it home for me

It was that sig that gave me an idea for a character that may or may not be written the way things go...

[Wakshaani]

It is scary that makes so much sense.
The down side is that they will have less education limiting their job potential but still, fireghteningly effective in its valid points.

Ayup.

Teh HUmans group was also a leading supplier of medical care in metabarrens, like the Ork Underground. Sure, there were rumors (cough) that they use dto sterilize, but, it remained something that they'd offer for people. They'd veen perform 'em for free! You want to get knocked up at 12 like your sister? We can tie your tubes today! Also passed out birth control pills, condoms, etc, but still provided actual, quality medical care.

One of the big tenants of the Humanis Policlub is that they aren't anti-meta, but that they're pro-human. By having all sorts of beneficial programs out there, they can proove (cough) that they're not a hate group.

Of course, they also produce made for trideo low-budget movies, like "My son was a teenaged Elf Poser" (A heartwrenching tale about a young boy that fell in with an Elfen crowd, started starving himself to mimic the proper build, had his ears done, started flouncing around in clubs (It was also a 'subtle' anti-gay thing, targeting the traditional view of Elves as femme), and eventually died from malnutrition. Big scene with the father (A simple blue-collar factory worker) holding his dead son in his arms, crying, while Elves look on, snort about 'poser's and walk away.)

Also had a big star be "Grandma Pucket", a retired older lady (80-ish) who was clearly harmless, sweet as can be, but who remembered watching her children get Goblinized and how, ever since, she's been donating to the Humanis Search for the Cure, a research form that's trying to cure the disease of Goblinization. (While mostly discredited by 2070, there are still those around who believe that the whole thing was viral in some way and can be cured.) Not amean bone in her body, she's personally watched the agony of someone turning Troll (Flesh tearing, horns erupting, skin hardening ... it's a terrible transformation) and seen ho wbadly that they get treate din society (Like lepers!), so want sto see a cure found, so she can finally look her son in the face again and give him a hug.

Of course, the Humanis, via coprorate sponsors, also supports 'Tuskwashing', where those Orks who want to enter the business world, but never get promoted becase of their obvious shame, can get their tusks removed, body hair zapped, chins restructured, 'musk glands' removed (Hey! I don't even have those, you slots!), and so on, turning them into a presentable member of the community, and sure to get a promotion now!

Simple gangs of hooded guys with crowbars is one thing, but when you play them as sneaky bastards, you get some innnteresting plots.

[CanRay]

Simple gangs of hooded guys with crowbars is one thing, but when you play them as sneaky bastards, you get some innnteresting plots.

It gets really interesting when they're both, and it turns out to be a blind for something else altogether.

EDIT: But that'd be ripping off Sons of Anarchy. ... ... Which isn't a bad idea.

[hermit]

Corporate Guide also features what may be a retcon attempt on ork life expectancy.

Another complication arose in 2064, when Shibanokuji revealed that he was suffering from Methuselah’s Syndrome, a genetic condition common in goblinized orks, and was aging at an accelerated pace.

The first, second and third edition corebooks gave a 35-40 years lifespan for orks. In the fourth edition, it is now 35-45 years. As goblinization occurred on 2021, the oldest born orks were 29 years old in 2050 (1st edition), 32 in 2053 (2nd edition), 39 in 2060 (3rd edition) and 49 in 2070 (4th edition). So any difference between goblinized orks (born humans) and born orks may weight a lot on the given average lifespan.

It's been established in fluff for a long tome that goblinized orcs and trolls age like hmans (~80 years on average lifespan) whereas born orcs age twice as fast. Seems Shibanokuji just 'suffered' from aging like a born orc. At least, I think that was the author's intention when writing this.