Im making no sense out of the bonus dice from ware.. Options

[Nkari]

So explain to me in plain english just how does Dice pool modifirers, atrib/skill bonuses, modified atribs/skills interact with eachother..

Because to me the rules in the books are way to spread out to make any sense at all..

Pretty please ?

And my search skillz on the forum is crap atm.. ust get a ton of unrelated topics..
And I have a 16 months old son killing my ability to rifle throu the damn books for an hour.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[LostProxy]

Everything adds or subtracts.

State + Skill +/- modifiers.

Example:

Agility 6 + Gymnastics 4 + Synthcardium 3 - 1 wound = 12d6

[Nkari]

Everything adds or subtracts.

State + Skill +/- modifiers.

Example:

Agility 6 + Gymnastics 4 + Synthcardium 3 - 1 wound = 12d6

So I can add as many modifiers as I like to say gymnastics 1? (from balancetail, adept powers, that bio memory thingie etc ?) no cap at all ?
And add the multiple pluses I get to str from say muscle replacement, (and some other str boosting stuff if it exists) ? (up to augumented race maximum ofc)

[ggodo]

Nope, no cap unless you're using improved ability.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

More acurately, You can only add Direct Skill Modifiers to an Augmented Skill cap of 1.5x Normal.
There are not a Lot of Direct Skill Modifiers.

Move By Wires (For Dodge)
Improved Ability (For Adepts, and only for certain Skills)
Reflex Recorder (For Certain Skills)

That's all that I can think of at the moment.

[Yerameyahu]

It's like they almost thought about introducing a balance system to combat DP creep… then said screw it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Glyph]

SR4A introduced an optional rule that caps dice pools at either 20 or the sum of natural skill plus Attribute, whichever is higher.

Other than that, you can go hog wild. Certain things do have lots and lots of potential modifiers. For example, gymnastics can be increased by satyr legs, raptor cyberlegs, synthcardium, Neo-EPO, enhanced articulation, and adept improved ability. Social skills are even more unhinged, as far as potential modifiers go.

[Nkari]

Thanks guys and gals.. =)

Makes things much easier.. (and now that my son is sleeping ive had the time to rifle throu the books to.. =) )

[Medicineman]

More acurately, You can only add Direct Skill Modifiers to an Augmented Skill cap of 1.5x Normal.
There are not a Lot of Direct Skill Modifiers.

Move By Wires (For Dodge)
Improved Ability (For Adepts, and only for certain Skills)
Reflex Recorder (For Certain Skills)

That's all that I can think of at the moment.

Certain Positive Qualities (like natural Athlete or Cats grace)
-------
there is another Cap at 20 Dice Total or (Nat. Atribute & Skill) x 2
(uups (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Glyph allready mentioned that)

with a Dance on Top of the Cap
Medicineman

[Draco18s]

SR4A introduced an optional rule that caps dice pools at either 20 or the sum of natural skill plus Attribute, whichever is higher.

Uh, it's 20 or twice (Attribute + Skill). Otherwise, your Att + Skill thingy would never get above 14 or so.

[Rubic]

Elf - Cha 8 cap
Genetic Optimization - cap raised to 9
Metagenetic Enhancement - cap raised to 10
Exceptional Attribute - cap raised to 11

Aptitude - raises skill cap to 7

11 + 7 = 18. Without dice pool boosts or stat enhancement (the parenthetical kind). Unrealistic to start as this, though.

with enhancements, you can hit (11 + 5) + (7 + 3) = 26, not counting quad forces and power ups. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Draco18s]

And that's an outlandish example unable to beat 20.

[Rubic]

Unable? You're just 1-2 augmentations away from making a 20 dice pool show where you touched it on the doll!

[hobgoblin]

SR4A introduced an optional rule that caps dice pools at either 20 or the sum of natural skill plus Attribute, whichever is higher.

Other than that, you can go hog wild. Certain things do have lots and lots of potential modifiers. For example, gymnastics can be increased by satyr legs, raptor cyberlegs, synthcardium, Neo-EPO, enhanced articulation, and adept improved ability. Social skills are even more unhinged, as far as potential modifiers go.

Well the SR4A copy i have here specifically cap social modifiers at 2xcharisma+skill. (p130, bottom of "social modifiers")

[Glyph]

Draco18s is right - the optional rule is twice the natural skill plus Attribute. Sorry for the confusion.

Social modifiers are a different beast altogether - they are things such as being hostile towards the other character, outnumbering the other character, and so on. So that cap would not affect most of the social skill dice pool boosters such as kinesics, empathy software, and so on.

[Teulisch]

the rules imply that a hacker in hot sim would use logic+skill to cap their program+skill rolls. and its unclear how a specialization applies to the cap. as it is, it seems that skill 1, attribute 1, and a specialization would hit the 4-dice cap right there.

i guess that makes sense. a logic 3 skill 3 hacker is going to have a cap 12, which makes logic a lot more important. got to have the brains and skill to use that code properly. you can get +6 dice from ware as it is, before you start stacking upgrades to your deck and positive qualities. either way, a skill 6 attribute 6 hacker to get more than 24 dice on a test at character generation.

[hobgoblin]

That is a very interesting way of introducing logic into the matrix without having to retool much of the basic system.

[Draco18s]

Unable? You're just 1-2 augmentations away from making a 20 dice pool show where you touched it on the doll!

No, my point was, it is impossible for Attribute + Skill to exceed 20, hence the point that the rule is twice attribute plus skill.

That is a very interesting way of introducing logic into the matrix without having to retool much of the basic system.

All you have to do is change "whichever is greater" to "whichever is lower"! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[longbowrocks]

No, my point was, it is impossible for Attribute + Skill to exceed 20, hence the point that the rule is twice attribute plus skill.

Well, unless you're talking about body or strength based skills on a troll, but I see what you're saying.

[Rubic]

No, my point was, it is impossible for Attribute + Skill to exceed 20, hence the point that the rule is twice attribute plus skill.

And in my example, I proved how boosting the ability and skill to the hard cap (without random dice bool bonuses) could push social dice pools to 26. This is including adept powers such as Improved Ability and Improved Skill or the cybered equivalents, while discounting such powers/enhancements as Kinesics, Tailored Pheremones, Emotitoys, etc.

[suoq]

The optional cap rule - Pg 61 SR4A

Optionally, gamemasters may choose to cap dice pools (including modifiers) at 20 dice, or at twice the sum of the character’s natural Attribute + Skill ratings, whichever is higher.

This would be 2*(Attribute + Skill)

The social modifier cap, which is completely different. Pg 130 SR4A

Cumulative positive Social Modifiers may not exceed the character’s combined natural Attribute + Skill Ratings.

So when doing a social test with the optional cap rule, calculate positive social modifiers, apply that cap, add in dice pool and negative social modifiers, and then apply the second cap.

Note that for hacking (which throws logic under the bus) and rigging tests (Pg 247 SR4A) which throws everything else under the bus, your table will have to decide what attribute is important or if the optional cap rule still applies, or if you actually use the equipment's stat to determine the cap. For Hacking, logic still seems the logical choice. For Rigging, I'm very tempted to go for Reaction while jumped in and Logic while using command.

As far as I know, RAW (and Missions) has completely ignored the combination of the optional skill cap rule and hacking/rigging. If someone can find me a rule, I'd appreciate a page number and book.

[hobgoblin]

Missions do not apply optional rules, given their nature as optional.

[suoq]

Missions do not apply optional rules, given their nature as optional.

http://www.shadowrun4.com/wp-content/uploa...Season_Four.pdf

IS THERE A CAP ON DICE POOLS?
There is a hard cap of 20 dice or twice the natural pool of Stat + Skill on all tests (p. 61, SR4A), whichever is higher.

I've reached the point where I simply don't believe anyone on dumpshock with regards to the rules unless they can give me a page number.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* It was my understanding that, in general, Missions doesn't use any optional rules… with some specific exceptions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[suoq]

*shrug* It was my understanding that, in general, Missions doesn't use any optional rules… with some specific exceptions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That's been my misuderstanding as well, but the more I look into things the more deviations I find, both documented and undocumented. In my opinion, Bull has done a much better job documenting the "house rules" for season 4 then season 3 did and personally, I'm happier with the line he drew, but that's just my personal taste.