Killing Great Dragons, The end is coming Options

[longbowrocks]

So I'm planning to start sniping anything that can astrally perceive, using drones. Great Dragons are near the top of my list since they're so damn pretentious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

My GM probably doesn't want to spend all day looking up spells for the dragons to circumvent this, and nobody enjoys GM fiat, so does anyone have some suggestions for him when the time comes?

[ggodo]

Assuming I haven't been looking up spells since the Lofwyr Incident.

[longbowrocks]

DUN, DUn, Dun!
I didn't succeed that time though. And dragons are the sort of creature that you can afford to use hand of god for.

[Dakka Dakka]

What are the drones carrying? How are you going through 20 real hardened armor not just ItNW? How many drones are there?

[Summerstorm]

Yeah... i don't think that heavy artillery, vehicle-lasers and anti-tank rockets count as "sniping" *g*

Also: GREAT dragons? You do know they are loaded with anchored spells, have spirit companions AND the power to warp fortune?

[longbowrocks]

Don't worry. I'm optimizing the heck out of them before hand. I guess a few stormclouds for redundancy with chameleon and suppressed barrets and APDS ammo mounted on internal flexible weapon mounts. Worst case, I'll just air drop some explosives. 4 kilos of R15 plastics will do a hefty 30 DV.

Do assault cannons fall in the vehicle weapon category, or normal category? A gauss is always the best option for anti-armor, provided it's accessible.

[longbowrocks]

Also: GREAT dragons? You do know they are loaded with anchored spells, have spirit companions AND the power to warp fortune?

Yeah, I hate the fortune warping. The upside is that one of their abilities takes a simple action (thus can't be used on my turn) and both require LOS. The best part is that both can be completely circumvented with a full auto grenade launcher, since hits only reduce scatter, and I can still hit with high scatter.

Also, I thought it was decided that rockets aren't all that great? Against structures it's a different story, but on normal enemies I don't see the draw.

[Summerstorm]

Eh, ok then.

A GREAT western dragon, who decides to use his majestic form to travel through the air.

Let's see. He has at least:
Bod: 25, Reaction: 11, 20 Points Hardened Armor

It is VERY likely that he has an active armor spell too, maybe a combat sense spell. And maybe hightened attributes. Because he casts with at LEAST 30 dice against drain and at least 25 dice for successes, we can safely assume about 10 points more armor (not hardened though). This is total minimum... i would normaly expect quickened spells overcast and edge-enhanced with a crapload of hits.

You need to surprise him, or he will likely dodge (or at least diminish your hits GREATLY).

If you shoot him with a anti-vehicle loaded Assault Canon (around 10 / -6 AP), you can't get him.
The MP-Laser III would be 9 / -half... You still need a boatload of successes to come to 16 damage against his armor of 15. After that he will likely negate 12+ points of damage... if he misses his rolls he will have AMPLE supply of edge to reroll misses.

EDIT: Ah, and this is just pure raw, damage... there are anchored spells (Maybe he has a huge illusion for when he is injured), healing magic, shielding spirits who take the blows for him, Spirit pacts (there is one where you can exchange karme for quickhealing... no questions asked) It is nearly impossible to do anything against a GREAT dragon. I suggest you start with a young one *g* But yeah... you might want to prepare for a fun manhunt at you, after you got one *g*.
To take him down you need to fill his ~20 boxes condition monitor before he can cloak (spirits using concealment) and heal up.

I REALLY recommend a surprise attack with vehicle-weapons (The Heavy Howitzer in war makes short work with ANYTHING in a direct hit)... or luring him somewhere with a prepared explosive charge. (Problem is they REALLY are not stupid)

[StevenAngier]

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons. For they are scaly and their breath smells like rotten thuna (or was that for cats with dermal problems? can't remember).

Great Dragons aren't meant for sport. They are plot devices. You either kill em off by overwhelming battle prowess or get banged in the behind so hard that sitting is simply not a matter of pain versus tolerance any longer but more of an impossibility. Great Dragons are GM fiat, hands down. Get yourself something gamebreaking and let your GM handle the cool action sequences. Just tell Pulsar that this particular specimen has said something very rude about artificial intelligences. Maybe he will use his THOR against him to compensate the lack of it's testicles.

[longbowrocks]

Yeah, I probably can't do it without surprise. I'd say my best bet is to abuse explosive stacking and chunky salsa.

Additionally, I'm looking mainly for the dragons that mingle with humans. Ones like Hestaby and Lofwyr are probably more likely to be in human form.

[longbowrocks]

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons. For they are scaly and their breath smells like rotten thuna (or was that for cats with dermal problems? can't remember).

Great Dragons aren't meant for sport. They are plot devices. You either kill em off by overwhelming battle prowess or get banged in the behind so hard that sitting is simply not a matter of pain versus tolerance any longer but more of an impossibility. Great Dragons are GM fiat, hands down. Get yourself something gamebreaking and let your GM handle the cool action sequences. Just tell Pulsar that this particular specimen has said something very rude about artificial intelligences. Maybe he will use his THOR against him to compensate the lack of it's testicles.

Heck yes.
I do worry about the fact that these guys are plot devices, which is why I will most likely postpone any serious efforts against one until our last session.

[longbowrocks]

or luring him somewhere with a prepared explosive charge. (Problem is they REALLY are not stupid)

This is where you abuse absolute rules. For example, the memories lost through laes exposure cannot be regained through any means. Thus I could create an unwitting double agent who plants directed charges in the dragon's shiny new armored walls. Well, that's the ideal circumstance, but I need to figure out how to make a dragon let me mod his home first.

[ggodo]

This is where you abuse absolute rules. For example, the memories lost through laes exposure cannot be regained through any means. Thus I could create an unwitting double agent who plants directed charges in the dragon's shiny new armored walls. Well, that's the ideal circumstance, but I need to figure out how to make a dragon let me mod his home first.

Should've taken Knowledge: Structural Design. Or enough Con to make someone think you did.

[longbowrocks]

I did take knowledge: security tactics. That's gotta count a bit for making secure walls.

[ggodo]

I thought that would be more "I think we should put a wall there" not "You should build a wall like this from this for best structuralness"

[longbowrocks]

You're the GM. Suddenly your thought becomes reality. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Christian Lafay]

This is where you abuse absolute rules. For example, the memories lost through laes exposure cannot be regained through any means. Thus I could create an unwitting double agent who plants directed charges in the dragon's shiny new armored walls. Well, that's the ideal circumstance, but I need to figure out how to make a dragon let me mod his home first.

Bring the Dragon to you, mwuahahahahahah. With an all expenses paid trip, five days/four nights, at the brand new hotel and spa. Make use of lots of contacts and cash to get this project rolling. Use the Advanced Lifestyle rules to make the creme de la creme of hotels, if only for one month. Make sure you have investors, whether they be people who want the hotel to succeed or want the dragon to die. Then you rip a plot out of Stargate and make the building the bomb. Not explosives on the wall but explosives ARE the wall. Or possibly the insulation. Invite many big wigs. If you have a death list, all of them. Or people who's mass murder would cause mass hysteria in the world/country/global market/whatever-the-hell. Once the target(s) arrive, get settled, and think about hitting the pool...... BOOM!

[longbowrocks]

Lol. That may be a way to do this with obstructing the game flow. Everyone loves investors, and this way the entire team could participate.

[hermit]

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons. For they are scaly and their breath smells like rotten thuna (or was that for cats with dermal problems? can't remember).

Great Dragons aren't meant for sport. They are plot devices. You either kill em off by overwhelming battle prowess or get banged in the behind so hard that sitting is simply not a matter of pain versus tolerance any longer but more of an impossibility. Great Dragons are GM fiat, hands down. Get yourself something gamebreaking and let your GM handle the cool action sequences. Just tell Pulsar that this particular specimen has said something very rude about artificial intelligences. Maybe he will use his THOR against him to compensate the lack of it's testicles.

He'll just MediaBlitz him, which is instant win (because Horizon cannot possibly lose, they're Google and Facebook and Apple rolled together).

OP, if you plan to go against great dragons? Stop worring ho to snipe one, and start worring how to get in sniping distance. Without it's n+10 henchmen getting to you first. If your GM just lets you, he's doing it wrong.

[longbowrocks]

I thought weather balloons with invisible guns were a good start. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[hermit]

You do realise SR dragons spend most of their time in their hoard, right? Which usually is in a cave?

[Glyph]

That's how I would prefer to run a great dragon, too. Not as something that is invincible because it has a zillion levels of initiation and no-sells everything, but as a creature that survives because it has bound spirits, minions, and lots of resources, as well as a superhuman, slightly alien intelligence.

I mean, forget about how it can soak heavy weapon damage. Damien Knight, for example, would probably be pretty squishy if you nailed him with a missile or full auto-fire. But would your character be able to get the opportunity to do that?

And honestly, the GM would be justified to drop the hammer down with no mercy. Unlike some, I don't have a problem with characters going after targets such as immortal elves, great dragons, underworld factions, or corporate CEOs. I think the theme of Shadowrun is that no one is invincible (which is why I hate crap like Ghostwalker invading Denver, or modules that tell you such-and-such a character cannot be killed). But it's one thing for the characters to take on such a foe in an epic campaign, and another thing for a character to decide to attack major NPCs more or less for the LULZ.

[Rubic]

SR Great Dragons are not just GM fiat, but they have several unique abilities that combine to basically GIVE them GM fiat, RAW and RAI. They are dual-natured entities, and as such are active on both the spirit and normal plane, perceiving both. Others have listed the MINIMUM stats for them (expect at least double for any named great dragons). Additionally, they probably have as much edge as you and your friends combined, and if they DO die, they can drop edge to not only survive the way a runner can, but leave a believable corpse behind to fool you, chunky salsa or not. The only thing your actions would POSSIBLY do is distract the dragons from whatever machinations they have amongst each other and give them a conversation piece in the form of your petrified body, kept on display and still alive in an 'I have no mouth but must scream' manner.

[hermit]

And honestly, the GM would be justified to drop the hammer down with no mercy. Unlike some, I don't have a problem with characters going after targets such as immortal elves, great dragons, underworld factions, or corporate CEOs. I think the theme of Shadowrun is that no one is invincible (which is why I hate crap like Ghostwalker invading Denver, or modules that tell you such-and-such a character cannot be killed). But it's one thing for the characters to take on such a foe in an epic campaign, and another thing for a character to decide to attack major NPCs more or less for the LULZ.

I agree. Also, I'd drop the full weight of possibilities of spying on the characters, and make them pay dearly for each and every oversight on their part. And that's not just for dragons, or immortal elves (though for pissing off immortal elves ... be certain to never, ever leave behind ritual samples anywhere, unless you want to try out your close combat skills against the Hunt). It's also be valid if you go after Villiers, Malmstein, Knight, Johnny Spinrad, Bernal, Nakatomi, Vogel, Anne Penchyk (who also is good for testing how you do against sneak attacks by high level combat spirits btw), Lord Marchment, or even most reasonably competent governments or high level conspiracy.

SR Great Dragons are not just GM fiat, but they have several unique abilities that combine to basically GIVE them GM fiat, RAW and RAI. They are dual-natured entities, and as such are active on both the spirit and normal plane, perceiving both. Others have listed the MINIMUM stats for them (expect at least double for any named great dragons). Additionally, they probably have as much edge as you and your friends combined, and if they DO die, they can drop edge to not only survive the way a runner can, but leave a believable corpse behind to fool you, chunky salsa or not. The only thing your actions would POSSIBLY do is distract the dragons from whatever machinations they have amongst each other and give them a conversation piece in the form of your petrified body, kept on display and still alive in an 'I have no mouth but must scream' manner.

I disagree. Great Dragons are killable if they expose themselves. Greats can be taken out by a bunch of well-equipped and prepared fighter jets easily, orlarger AA missiles.

Point is, GDs know this. And will not expose themselves. So even while you do have a chance to best one in a reasonably fair combat, it's not gonna happen. Because they do not fight fair.

[Faelan]

All I have to say is when you target a GD, and you overlook a single detail at any stage of the planning/campaign (and yes taking out a GD should take years of in game planning and maneuvering), other GD's, Immortal Elves, and any other power player who could benefit is going to begin actions to make you just another pawn. What you are talking about is the kind of thing that goes bad in a hurry. You have drones? S-K has more, especially anywhere Lofwyr would be. You have guns? S-K has more especially anywhere Lofwyr would be. The only way to get to a GD is to take out his defenses, and in this case that mean taking down S-K (the shell), to get to Lofwyr (the not so soft meat inside). Good luck, especially as a farewell kind of afterthought action.