Infected and Dual Natured Quality Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Interesting... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tanegar]

Masking allows you to alter your aura, and aura is the intangible reflection of a living being on the astral plane. A dual natured being is actively present in the astral plane as an astral form, not just an aura, and masking does nothing to hide an astral form, even saying it could alter you to look like another astral form is taking a liberal interpretation of the rules. I personally make a home brew metamagic that allows naturally dual natured beings to suppress their astral form.

Ahh! I hadn't picked up on the distinction between auras and astral forms. Thank you.

[Christian Lafay]

Masking allows you to alter your aura, and aura is the intangible reflection of a living being on the astral plane. A dual natured being is actively present in the astral plane as an astral form, not just an aura, and masking does nothing to hide an astral form, even saying it could alter you to look like another astral form is taking a liberal interpretation of the rules. I personally make a home brew metamagic that allows naturally dual natured beings to suppress their astral form.

That is an interesting thought. I will admit that I always assumed that for a dual-natured creature that their aura and their astral form being one in the same, in their appearance at least, as they are so closely tied together. Hmmmm

[DamienKnight]

Masking: A character who learns masking can change the appearance
of her aura/astral form to do the following: look mundane, look
as though her Magic is higher or lower than it is (+/– your grade of
initiation), or look as though she is a different type of astral creature.

A vampire with masking makes himself look mundane. Now he cannot be the direct target of any mana based spells.

a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras
of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted).

A manaball is not like a fireball. Any mana based spell is not an explosion of magic that starts at one point and affects everyone in the area of affect. Mana based spells require line of sight. If you dont have line of sight on his Aura as being awakened and a valid target, then you cannot target him with a mana based area spell.

A fireball you can drop around a corner and everyone is hit in the AOE, even if you cant see them. If a mage is not using astral perception, and someone is wearing a chameleon suit, he cannot see them, therefore cannot target them with a stunball. Everyone around him would drop, but the invisible character would not. Same principle for concealing the astrally active part of your form, making yourself look mundane. If all they see is a mundane character, they cannot target them while astrally projecting.

Thats my take on it anyway. Either way, dual-natured is more benefit than detriment IMO, even if mages can target you.

Sure a mage could be hovering in the air, but in a bar, with a decent agility, you can reach any part of the bar with a jump. You see him, you roll better on your initiative, you go claw his spellcasting face off. Sure he can run away super fast, but if he hangs around to spend an action dropping a manabomb, he better not miss.

How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss?

[Manunancy]

Masking protects you from that. First grade of initiation to get masking is just 8 karma with a group and oath, and 3 karma to join the group. Its not a very big problem unless you cant initiate.

Honestly though... who is going to play a Vampire that isnt an Adept or Magician?

That suppose you can find a group willing to take you onboard despite being a vampire - which would strongly point at a vampire club or the like. Which means usually underground groups with their own agenda - which is not guaranteed to be something you (or the other PCs) would agree with.

Even if there's a wide variation in shadowrun's vampires tempr, it seems there's more than a fair share of bastards in the lot. Nosferatus are even worse in that regard, being the newb into a magical group of the buggers is likely to require a lot of lube.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Masking allows you to alter your aura, and aura is the intangible reflection of a living being on the astral plane. A dual natured being is actively present in the astral plane as an astral form, not just an aura, and masking does nothing to hide an astral form, even saying it could alter you to look like another astral form is taking a liberal interpretation of the rules. I personally make a home brew metamagic that allows naturally dual natured beings to suppress their astral form.

A dual-natured critter may use Masking to appear mundane and if the observer does not beat its masking, he won't be able to target it through the Astral Plane.

A shapeshifter for instance may use masking to look like a dual-natured human or to look like a mundane critter of the same species.

[Yerameyahu]

Even Indirect AoE spells require LOS to the center of the effect, though not LoS to each target (Manaball, in contrast, does).

[Platinum]

In previous versions of Shadowrun Vampires were always dual natured... all infected were. Although they were not available as player characters (except for Ghouls in 3rd edition).

Of course, in old versions Vampires had immunity to normal weapons and added their essence to their strength... I just think that all infected should have the Dual Natured quality, but I guess not.

This is false. They were never dual natured. They only had immunity to normal weapons in mist form. If you killed a vampire with a normal weapon then you had to roll a d6 to see if you killed it. A vampire would add their essence to their strength. Nosferatu were even more deadly since all of them are hermetic mages, and can add up to double their essence to their stats.

Only ghouls have always been dual natured.

Took me so long to comment because I wanted to check my books for certain.

[Platinum]

As I remember it (haven't played in a while), the only way to get past a ward without setting it off if you're dual natured is:

• Initiate and get masking.
• Find someone who is authorized to go through the ward and study them for an extended time so you can mimic their signature.
• Mask the authorized user's signature and walk through. The ward makes a test to pierce your masking with a threshhold of your initiate grade?

Is this correct?

I can't find anywhere that says masking is what you use, I have seen older editions say to use dispelling to attune yourself to the ward.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

It's not masking in this case. It's flexible signature.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's not masking in this case. It's flexible signature.

Actually, it is Masking...

[DamienKnight]

Actually, it is Masking...

Could you quote me the rules for this? I know you could mask through wards in 3rd edition, but don't see the rule for it in 4th.

It's not masking in this case. It's flexible signature.

That would actually make a lot of sense. Making your signature match the creator's signature.

This is false. They were never dual natured. They only had immunity to normal weapons in mist form. If you killed a vampire with a normal weapon then you had to roll a d6 to see if you killed it. A vampire would add their essence to their strength. Nosferatu were even more deadly since all of them are hermetic mages, and can add up to double their essence to their stats.

Only ghouls have always been dual natured.

Took me so long to comment because I wanted to check my books for certain.

LOL, Eimi beat you to it 7 days ago (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Uh, I have my books right here, and I'm not sure where people are getting this idea that Vampires (or the other infected except for Ghouls and Loup-Garou) are dual natured.

Good point though, they were not dual natured in 3rd edition (just checked the critters book). Question still stands... why?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Could you quote me the rules for this? I know you could mask through wards in 3rd edition, but don't see the rule for it in 4th.

Sure, here you go... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sometimes a magician just has to get through a ward. Attacking it or pressing through it are viable options (see p. 185, SR4), but both alert the ward's creator to the action, which the magician may want to avoid. The most covert way of bypassing a ward is to take advantage of the fact that every ward allows its creator to pass through it freely. If an intruding magician's aura mimics an aura approved to freely move through the ward, the intruding magician may pass harmlessly through without alerting anyone to the action.
Only magicians with the Masking metamagic technique (p. 190, SR4) or spirits with the Aura Masking power (p. 98) may attempt to synchronize their aura with a ward in such a way. In order to synchronize one's aura so it mimics a ward’s creator, the synchronizing magician or spirit must be able to see the creator's aura to use as a reference. One way to do this is to track the astral link present between a ward and its creator (see Astral Tracking, p. 185, SR4). Then an Opposed Test is made between the initiate's Intuition + Magic + initiate grade and the ward's Force x 2. If the intruding magician succeeds, the ward no longer inhibits them. If the ward wins, it continues to inhibit the intruding magician, but does not alert its creator until the intruding magician tries to force his way through by another method.
If tracking the ward's creator through the astral plane isn't an option (the creator is behind another barrier, the intruding magician doesn't want to risk being spotted, etc.), the intruding magician can instead use a material, sympathetic, or symbolic link for the synchronization process (see Material Links, p. 28). Any dice pool penalties incurred by using those links in ritual sorcery also penalize the Opposed Test for fooling the ward.

As for the foloowing comment:

That would actually make a lot of sense. Making your signature match the creator's signature.

Flexible Signature DOES NOT allow synchronization through a ward. See highlighted rules above.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Actually, it is Masking...

You may use masking to pretend your aura is of another kind of creature, to pretend your magic is higher or lower or look mundane.
Flexible Signature allows you to copy someone else's aura, I think that would be the way to bypass a ward, doesn't it?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You may use masking to pretend your aura is of another kind of creature, to pretend your magic is higher or lower or look mundane.
Flexible Signature allows you to copy someone else's aura, I think that would be the way to bypass a ward, doesn't it?

Flexible Signature does not allow bypassing a Ward, That is Masking, See Above quote, or refer to Street Magic, page 124.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

Flexible Signature allows you to copy someone else's aura, I think that would be the way to bypass a ward, doesn't it?

Nope, Flexible signature allows you to copy someones Signature, not his aura. Auras are the reflections of beings and objects on the atral plane. Signatures are the "finger prints" you leave when you use magical skills and powers.

[DamienKnight]

Flexible Signature does not allow bypassing a Ward, That is Masking, See Above quote, or refer to Street Magic, page 124.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, I dont think the argument is that Flexible Signature allows for masking through wards, its just that it makes sense that it would be used for that.

If your signature matches that of the mage who made the ward, seems like the ward would want to let you through.

[Tanegar]

Flexible Signature changes your signature, not your aura. It might let you cast a spell through the ward, but it would not let you walk through the ward.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Flexible Signature changes your signature, not your aura. It might let you cast a spell through the ward, but it would not let you walk through the ward.

Cannot be said enough... ^^^ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

If your signature matches that of the mage who made the ward, seems like the ward would want to let you through.

It all depends on whether the ward checks the Aura (similar to a visual inspection) or the Signature (similar to matching finger prints). The problem with the signature checking is that walking/astrally moving through a barrier is not the use of a magic ability. So you would not leave a signature for the barrier to check.

[DamienKnight]

I guess convincing a barrier that you are not magically active would be easier than convincing it you are the one who made it...

[Tanegar]

A dual-natured critter may use Masking to appear mundane and if the observer does not beat its masking, he won't be able to target it through the Astral Plane.

A shapeshifter for instance may use masking to look like a dual-natured human or to look like a mundane critter of the same species.

Page reference, please. The entry on Masking (SR4A, page 198) says, in part:

A character who learns masking can change the appearance of her aura/astral form to do the following: look mundane, look as though her Magic is higher or lower than it is (+/- your grade of initiation), or look as though she is a different type of astral creature.

There is no mention anywhere of being able to hide the fact that you're dual-natured. You can change what your astral form looks like, but you cannot change the fact that you have an astral form. Ergo, no matter what the vampire makes himself look like, he is still vulnerable to mana spells cast from astral space.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

That's what I get for saying stuff witout cheking before...

[Dakka Dakka]

The thing is masking does not change your dual natured or astral status. Observers simply do not perceive your status. It's just like running into a wall in the dark or while you are invisible, it will hurt the same.

[DamienKnight]

Page reference, please. The entry on Masking (SR4A, page 198) says, in part:

There is no mention anywhere of being able to hide the fact that you're dual-natured. You can change what your astral form looks like, but you cannot change the fact that you have an astral form. Ergo, no matter what the vampire makes himself look like, he is still vulnerable to mana spells cast from astral space.

Masking: A character who learns masking can change the appearance
of her aura/astral form to do the following: look mundane, look
as though her Magic is higher or lower than it is (+/– your grade of
initiation), or look as though she is a different type of astral creature.

Mundane targets cannot be targeted with manabased spells from an astrally projecting magician.