[X] My Assistant

[Tanegar]

OK, so the vampire looks like a dual-natured mundane. He's still dual-natured, he's still present on the astral plane.

[Dakka Dakka]

The target is not mundane, it only looks mundane. It is an interesting question what happens if you only see the (fake) aura, but know that in the same place must be an astral form. It could work since the other way around works. Astrally perceiving characters (who are not dual-natured critters) can target mundane targets even though they cannot perceive their mundane form.

[DamienKnight]

The target is not mundane, it only looks mundane. It is an interesting question what happens if you only see the (fake) aura, but know that in the same place must be an astral form. It could work since the other way around works. Astrally perceiving characters (who are not dual-natured critters) can target mundane targets even though they cannot perceive their mundane form.

But a physically present magician does not need to see a magically active target in order to cast manabased spells on them. Mages can stunball street sammies, no problem.

The same is not true for a projecting mage. If he wants to hit a target, he HAS to SEE a valid target, and a mundane is not a valid target.

[Rubic]

But a physically present magician does not need to see a magically active target in order to cast manabased spells on them. Mages can stunball street sammies, no problem.

The same is not true for a projecting mage. If he wants to hit a target, he HAS to SEE a valid target, and a mundane is not a valid target.

A projecting mage is to an astral target what a physically present mage is to a physical target. It doesn't matter that the vampire APPEARS mundane in the astral, if the mage knows it has to be that mundane-looking astral form.

[Tanegar]

But a physically present magician does not need to see a magically active target in order to cast manabased spells on them. Mages can stunball street sammies, no problem.

The same is not true for a projecting mage. If he wants to hit a target, he HAS to SEE a valid target, and a mundane is not a valid target.

There is nothing... let me reiterate, NOTHING in the description of Masking that indicates it can hide the presence of an astral form. You can make your astral form look like something else, but you cannot hide it or suppress it using Masking. A projecting mage who sees an apparently un-Awakened astral form is going to become very suspicious, since you can't have an astral form if you're mundane. For a dual-natured being, Masking might actually make you more conspicuous, not less.

[Udoshi]

Extended Masking, and a mana-based illusion spell, however, can.

You DO need to be able to conceal the spell aura, otherwise your deception will be painfully obvious.

[Tanegar]

Extended Masking, and a mana-based illusion spell, however, can.

You DO need to be able to conceal the spell aura, otherwise your deception will be painfully obvious.

That's an interesting interpretation. I think I follow your line of reasoning: a mana illusion extends into the astral plane, therefore can disguise an astral form. Please cite a page reference, as nothing I've read implies that.

[Eimi]

OK, so the vampire looks like a dual-natured mundane. He's still dual-natured, he's still present on the astral plane.

Vampires are not dual-natured.

[Dakka Dakka]

That's an interesting interpretation. I think I follow your line of reasoning: a mana illusion extends into the astral plane, therefore can disguise an astral form. Please cite a page reference, as nothing I've read implies that.

There is nothing explicit that it works but there are several rules about magic that make it possible:
- mana based spells work on the astral plane, or the physical plane, not both at the same time.
- you can create mana based illusions for every sense.
- astral perception is a sense
=> You can create a mana based single(or multi) sense illusion spell that hides what you cast it on.
Now the spell still has an aura. For the uninitiated this makes the spell above pointless. But with Extended Masking you can incorporate a sustained spell into your aura/astral form. Thus you are hidden on the astral plane.

So it is a creative application of the rules we have.

[Apathy]

You have to be able to see your target for any direct damage spell, even area effect spells (stunball, etc). But you don't have to see the target on indirect spells. To my knowlege there are no mana-based indirect spells in the sourcebooks, but nothing prevents you from creating such a spell.

If I did make a 'clusterfuck' spell (mana-based, area effect, indirect damage, no associated elemental effect), how would you handle determining damage? Indirect spells have to get past armor, but mana-based spells normally don't. How would it work?

[HunterHerne]

You have to be able to see your target for any direct damage spell, even area effect spells (stunball, etc). But you don't have to see the target on indirect spells. To my knowlege there are no mana-based indirect spells in the sourcebooks, but nothing prevents you from creating such a spell.

If I did make a 'clusterfuck' spell (mana-based, area effect, indirect damage, no associated elemental effect), how would you handle determining damage? Indirect spells have to get past armor, but mana-based spells normally don't. How would it work?

SM 162. Indirect spells are always physical.

Indirect Combat spells must always be physical, as they
create a damaging physical effect to use against the target.
Indirect Combat spells are treated as ranged attacks, so physical
armor applies.

[HunterHerne]

You have to be able to see your target for any direct damage spell, even area effect spells (stunball, etc). But you don't have to see the target on indirect spells. To my knowlege there are no mana-based indirect spells in the sourcebooks, but nothing prevents you from creating such a spell.

If I did make a 'clusterfuck' spell (mana-based, area effect, indirect damage, no associated elemental effect), how would you handle determining damage? Indirect spells have to get past armor, but mana-based spells normally don't. How would it work?

SM 162. Indirect spells are always physical.

Opposed Test (except against nonliving objects).
Indirect Combat spells must always be physical, as they
create a damaging physical effect to use against the target.
Indirect Combat spells are treated as ranged attacks, so physical
armor applies.

However, while not actually presented in the book, you can make a powerball spell that is indirect. This will do most of what you want, excepting hit astral entities.

[Dakka Dakka]

However, while not actually presented in the book, you can make a powerball spell that is indirect. This will do most of what you want, excepting hit astral entities.

Well this is just your standard indirect combat spell without an elemental effect, dropping the -half impact armor and special effects. I doubt that is very good, especially since everyone gets REA(+Counterpselling) to dodge.

[HunterHerne]

Well this is just your standard indirect combat spell without an elemental effect, dropping the -half impact armor and special effects. I doubt that is very good, especially since everyone gets REA(+Counterpselling) to dodge.

Yeah, I know. But it's still a possibility.

[Seth]

My two-pencem which restates some of the stuff above

IMO Dual Natured is more of a disadvantage than an advantage.

Reason one: Wards are cheap and readily available and used all over the place
Masking as a mundane does NOT let you get through a ward. If it did, it would be covered under the same section that details how you can get through a ward with masking. Its clear how masking can help you get through a ward
1: Astral tracking to find the creator (who is often behind the ward) 1 hour per search. If he's behind the ward...good luck and I hope you don't get bored easily
2: Masking roll vs ward
or you can skip phase 1 if you can see the creator.

Your alternatives are to destroy the ward (probably quite easy but will take several IPs probably), or smash through the ward (don't fail or you are unconscious). Both of these automatically alert the creator. Much of shadowrun requires stealth. The moment you hit a ward its hours of work to get through, while the rest of the team have charged ahead.

If you don't think that is a serious disadvantage, then you probably don't agree with my view that dual natured is a disadvantage.

Reason two: the hovering astral mage.
Astral mages are very constrained in that they mostly cannot affect the real world. They can summon (1) spirit, and use bound spirits. But bound spirits are intrinsically limited in their force by the very high drain code. Astral mages can be deployed anywhere in the same city in a matter of seconds, but are mostly used as recon and spirit wranglers.

Once you are dual natured, they can deploy their full suite of (mana) spells upon you, hovering out of reach. You had better hope you have a suitable attack (spells or... nope I think its just spells) or you are toast. They will never be in melee range (they move so much faster than you that its not funny). And they can go and get their friends.
"Hey joe, I've been tasked to deal with a disturbance at location XXX. I've deployed the spirits. But get this: one of them is dual natured. Do you want to round up the lads so that we can get a captive? Its always nice taking part in a turkey shoot or a seal clubbing"

[Rubic]

My two-pencem which restates some of the stuff above

IMO Dual Natured is more of a disadvantage than an advantage.

Reason one: Wards are cheap and readily available and used all over the place
Masking as a mundane does NOT let you get through a ward. If it did, it would be covered under the same section that details how you can get through a ward with masking. Its clear how masking can help you get through a ward
1: Astral tracking to find the creator (who is often behind the ward) 1 hour per search. If he's behind the ward...good luck and I hope you don't get bored easily
2: Masking roll vs ward
or you can skip phase 1 if you can see the creator.

Your alternatives are to destroy the ward (probably quite easy but will take several IPs probably), or smash through the ward (don't fail or you are unconscious). Both of these automatically alert the creator. Much of shadowrun requires stealth. The moment you hit a ward its hours of work to get through, while the rest of the team have charged ahead.

If you don't think that is a serious disadvantage, then you probably don't agree with my view that dual natured is a disadvantage.

Reason two: the hovering astral mage.
Astral mages are very constrained in that they mostly cannot affect the real world. They can summon (1) spirit, and use bound spirits. But bound spirits are intrinsically limited in their force by the very high drain code. Astral mages can be deployed anywhere in the same city in a matter of seconds, but are mostly used as recon and spirit wranglers.

Once you are dual natured, they can deploy their full suite of (mana) spells upon you, hovering out of reach. You had better hope you have a suitable attack (spells or... nope I think its just spells) or you are toast. They will never be in melee range (they move so much faster than you that its not funny). And they can go and get their friends.
"Hey joe, I've been tasked to deal with a disturbance at location XXX. I've deployed the spirits. But get this: one of them is dual natured. Do you want to round up the lads so that we can get a captive? Its always nice taking part in a turkey shoot or a seal clubbing"

This is a good reason for most ghouls to stay underground. If the mage can't see them, the mage can't snipe them. If the mage wants to attack them, he has to enter the ghoul's turf. If he does, he risks being in melee range. If he's in melee range, he can be attacked by the ghoul. Step 3: Profit. Narrow corridors with low roofs are the equalizer, much as tactics is wont to be.