[X] My Assistant

[hermit]

Okay, read the book. What can I say - I like it, for what it's worth - it gives some ideas on water-based runs, but I just don't see many people using them.

I'll buy one of my characters the house boat. And FWIW, since I have a half-done Venice setting I occasionally use, many of the vehicles in the PDF are fairly useful to me.

[Yerameyahu]

We're in Kingston right now, doing some smuggling/piracy stuff. Angry free water spirits. Good times. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Critias]

Then, there are just bits that are plainly wrong or stupid, like a shadowtalker mentioning that using a loud civilian vehicle for distraction only works in trids or urban brawl. Urban brawl? With civilian vehicles on the field (or rather, brawlers using them for any reason)? Hmmm?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this part. I'm on my wife's laptop so I don't have my Deadly Waves handy right this second, but what exactly is the complaint with this post, and/or what are you trying to say about Urban Brawl (if you don't mind me asking)?

[Fatum]

Okay, I'm glad to hear at least something from the book will be used, although personally I'd be careful about using something that's stated to be barely afloat and barely mobile as my base...

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this part. I'm on my wife's laptop so I don't have my Deadly Waves handy right this second, but what exactly is the complaint with this post, and/or what are you trying to say about Urban Brawl (if you don't mind me asking)?

Uh, have you read the rules of Urban Brawl (say, in Killing Glee)? Even the use of the outrider's bike is strictly limited; using civilian vehicles, even if there are some left on the field for some reason, is right out.

[hermit]

Okay, I'm glad to hear at least something from the book will be used, although personally I'd be careful about using something that's stated to be barely afloat and barely mobile as my base...

It's more like a hideout. And the game's in London, so I'll not take it onto open water. I've actually been fiddling with other boats before to path a houseboat together, but wasn't quite satisfied with the results before.

However, rules how to integrate this into a lifestyle would have been nice - say, as in "the houseboat counts as a permanent middle commodities (3 LP) in a lifestyle". That would at least make sense, going by the numbers.

[Critias]

Uh, have you read the rules of Urban Brawl (say, in Killing Glee)? Even the use of the outrider's bike is strictly limited; using civilian vehicles, even if there are some left on the field for some reason, is right out.

Killing Glare, and yes, I have. In fact, I just got done writing an update for Urban Brawl into a CMP adventure, and communicated pretty heavily with the German team about their Blut & Spiele, so I feel pretty comfortable with the game. What was confusing me was your post made it sound like Urban Brawlers never had loud civilian vehicles on the field, when in fact they've got (normally) an armor-plated, up-engined, Harley roaring around on pretty much every single play of the game. The only "limitation" on what the Outrider can do is that they can't carry the ball; in terms of using it as what you might call a "distraction," then (albeit a lethal one), I don't see what the problem with the comment is -- at least as far as Urban Brawl is concerned.

While it's true that the Outrider's bike is still pretty souped up and modified, it's still at heart what I'd consider a "loud civilian vehicle," for sure.

[Fatum]

It's more like a hideout. And the game's in London, so I'll not take it onto open water. I've actually been fiddling with other boats before to path a houseboat together, but wasn't quite satisfied with the results before.
However, rules how to integrate this into a lifestyle would have been nice - say, as in "the houseboat counts as a permanent middle commodities (3 LP) in a lifestyle". That would at least make sense, going by the numbers.

Well, it has Amenities...

Killing Glare, and yes, I have.

Yeah, Glare, right. And I even rechecked, heh.

What was confusing me was your post made it sound like Urban Brawlers never had loud civilian vehicles on the field, when in fact they've got (normally) an armor-plated, up-engined, Harley roaring around on pretty much every single play of the game.

Which I wouldn't call a civilian vehicle, minding that it's purpose-built for the game.

The only "limitation" on what the Outrider can do is that they can't carry the ball;

There are also limitations on who and when can and can't ride it along with the outrider.

in terms of using it as what you might call a "distraction," then (albeit a lethal one), I don't see what the problem with the comment is -- at least as far as Urban Brawl is concerned.
While it's true that the Outrider's bike is still pretty souped up and modified, it's still at heart what I'd consider a "loud civilian vehicle," for sure.

The problem, as I said, is that the bike is not a civilian vehicle, not any more than the brawlers themselves during the game are civilians. And since using even that is limited, using what you think first of when you read about civilian vehicles - cars or bikes left in the game zone, - is right out of the question, as a distraction or otherwise.

[Bull]

Exactly

Something else I just thought of, what effect does this have on Missions? One would assume the most recent printing supersedes previous errata, so "we don't know no errata" is the official RAW now?

Makes my life more difficult, that's for sure.

The only "good" thing about the reversion is that it means the Gauss Rifle doesn't have that fucking retarded -1/2 Armor, with -6AP stacked on top of it. Gah. I loath and detest "- 1/2 Armor". Stupidest rule in the game. Because it means that something that can slice through 10 points of vehicle armor can only cut through 1 point of my fashionable 2 Impact Leather Armor? Stupid wonky piece of crap rule.

Anyway, standing rule is that the most recent version of the rules, FAQ, and Errata apply. With newer printed versions superceding earlier versions. And yeah, like I said, this makes my life considerably more difficult.

Bull

[Stahlseele]

Well, it has Amenities...


Yeah, Glare, right. And I even rechecked, heh.

Which I wouldn't call a civilian vehicle, minding that it's purpose-built for the game.

There are also limitations on who and when can and can't ride it along with the outrider.

The problem, as I said, is that the bike is not a civilian vehicle, not any more than the brawlers themselves during the game are civilians. And since using even that is limited, using what you think first of when you read about civilian vehicles - cars or bikes left in the game zone, - is right out of the question, as a distraction or otherwise.

using them as IED's however, should be just fine . . if you can rig something up to make them blow where they stand . .
oh, and using them as thrown weapons or clubs should work too, for trolls and other monsters.

Makes my life more difficult, that's for sure.

The only "good" thing about the reversion is that it means the Gauss Rifle doesn't have that fucking retarded -1/2 Armor, with -6AP stacked on top of it. Gah. I loath and detest "- 1/2 Armor". Stupidest rule in the game. Because it means that something that can slice through 10 points of vehicle armor can only cut through 1 point of my fashionable 2 Impact Leather Armor? Stupid wonky piece of crap rule.

Anyway, standing rule is that the most recent version of the rules, FAQ, and Errata apply. With newer printed versions superceding earlier versions. And yeah, like I said, this makes my life considerably more difficult.

Bull

Poor old Man ^^

[Critias]

Which I wouldn't call a civilian vehicle, minding that it's purpose-built for the game.

Not always. Recently we've introduced the Harley Brawler that tends to be specialized towards ass-kicking in the Brawl Zone, but traditionally it could've been any old heavy motorcycle, none of which were specialized security or military vehicles. They're still not exactly rolling around in APCs or something, either way, though. To me, a motorcycle's a civilian vehicle at heart.

There are also limitations on who and when can and can't ride it along with the outrider.

Uhh, not really. It's pretty much "not the ball, or a dude carrying the ball," and that's really about it.

The problem, as I said, is that the bike is not a civilian vehicle, not any more than the brawlers themselves during the game are civilians. And since using even that is limited, using what you think first of when you read about civilian vehicles - cars or bikes left in the game zone, - is right out of the question, as a distraction or otherwise.

Right, well, anyways. *shrugs* I won't say the Shadowtalk comment is tremendous or anything, but it seems like we just disagree on the precise nature of the Outrider and his bike, which (in my opinion) isn't worth quibbling about any further, even for someplace as generally pedantic as the internet. Mostly I was just asking for a little clarity concerning your particular Urban Brawl question (since UB's always been awesome, in my head), and that's accomplished.

So, anyways. Sorry for the tangent.

[Fatum]

using them as IED's however, should be just fine . . if you can rig something up to make them blow where they stand . .
oh, and using them as thrown weapons or clubs should work too, for trolls and other monsters.

Haha, ok, right. That surely makes for a "loud vehicle" alright (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Not always. Recently we've introduced the Harley Brawler that tends to be specialized towards ass-kicking in the Brawl Zone, but traditionally it could've been any old heavy motorcycle, none of which were specialized security or military vehicles. They're still not exactly rolling around in APCs or something, either way, though. To me, a motorcycle's a civilian vehicle at heart.

Well, Brawler is statted up in Killing Glare. Plus there are BMW Mjöllnir and similar models in Arsenal 2070, built purposely for combat biking - so I doubt there's any shortage of specialized bike models, really.

Uhh, not really. It's pretty much "not the ball, or a dude carrying the ball," and that's really about it.

Right, for some reason I thought Heavies couldn't.

I won't say the Shadowtalk comment is tremendous or anything, but it seems like we just disagree on the precise nature of the Outrider and his bike, which (in my opinion) isn't worth quibbling about any further, even for someplace as generally pedantic as the internet.

Yeah, that particular bit is minor, of course. I was just mentioning it to explain why I feel the shadowtalk in the book as a whole is somewhat substandard.

[CanRay]

Actually, I finally got it, so I'll give a read and my own 0.02 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) myself in a bit, when I have time to go through it.

OK, first read through, some interesting things certainly, but the Shadowtalk seems very forced indeed, and full of "That was you?" comments. Which seems odd for a small group of very international ranging people who probably rarely ever are near each other (Except for the folks in Seattle, of course! Home of the Shadowrunner!).

Other than that (And, yes, the "Bogota On The Ocean" bit) it's worth the purchase price in my mind. Art was decent and, well, looked like boats (Better than the firearms did in Gun Heaven!). Some interesting choices of Civilian and possible Shadowrunner craft as well. I have a few ideas of what to do with a lot of them.

[Christian Lafay]

Now I can have my summer house (house boat) and my winter house (zepplin). Things are moving up for my character.

[CanRay]

Where's your Spring and Fall houses? Ford-Canada Bisons? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Christian Lafay]

Tractor-trailer on the grid with a great pilot program. Always on the move with the jammer on.

[Mäx]

but the Shadowtalk seems very forced indeed, and full of "That was you?" comments. Which seems odd for a small group of very international ranging people who probably rarely ever are near each other (Except for the folks in Seattle, of course! Home of the Shadowrunner!).

I don't know i read pretty much all of those as "oh, i heard about that one" and not "oh it was you on the other side of that insident".
The one that was of the latter type didn't look that forced to me atleast.

[Fatum]

Again - half a hundred people of the billions in the world. Ok, half a hundred people of the tens of thousands in the profession.
The chances of them meeting each other is even less than us meeting each other.

But as I said, I'd be fine with that if such encounters would have been gotten any mention in the other books other than cursory.

[Critias]

Again - half a hundred people of the billions in the world. Ok, half a hundred people of the tens of thousands in the profession.
The chances of them meeting each other is even less than us meeting each other.

But as I said, I'd be fine with that if such encounters would have been gotten any mention in the other books other than cursory.

From my own read-throughs, I only recall one instance of "that was you?" when two Jackpointers directly crossed paths. The other times it was just folks having heard through the grapevine about jobs another Jackpointer pulled. That doesn't seem unlikely to me, since we're supposed to be dealing with the best and most well-connected Shadowrunners; traveling in the right circles, getting semi-legit work as advisers from time to time, only pulling the most top-end jobs, etc, etc? I can see it.

[Fatum]

Yeah, hearing of each other is perfectly believable - but it's by far not what we have in Deadly Waves.
Besides, Mika and Mafan are said to be rivals (those two, right? Away from books), so I believe at least those two meet each other at least indirectly from time to time.

[Critias]

Yeah, hearing of each other is perfectly believable - but it's by far not what we have in Deadly Waves.

Uhh, yeah it is. Hearing of each other is what we have in Deadly Waves. Unless I'm misremembering, there's only one instance of a pair of Jackpointers that directly crossed paths (Red Anya and one of the magic-user dudes, who sank her ship with a water spirit, IIRC). The other handful of Shadowtalk posts were "Oh, so that was you, that one time, that I heard about!" and "I remember hearing about that explosion, you killed some cops," and that sort of thing.

[Sengir]

Gah. I loath and detest "- 1/2 Armor". Stupidest rule in the game. Because it means that something that can slice through 10 points of vehicle armor can only cut through 1 point of my fashionable 2 Impact Leather Armor? Stupid wonky piece of crap rule.

Damage and armor have always been a quite abstract system (and scale poorly to anything larger than an up-armored Steel Lynx), so just don't think too much about it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Although as long as it's coupled with a solid base AP, I think the "-half" works just fine...

Anyway, standing rule is that the most recent version of the rules, FAQ, and Errata apply. With newer printed versions superceding earlier versions. And yeah, like I said, this makes my life considerably more difficult.

Well, good luck trying to make CGL release (or accept previously released) errata. And that's not sarcasm, I'd rather have no reason to bitch about their errata policy anymore.

[hermit]

Damage and armor have always been a quite abstract system (and scale poorly to anything larger than an up-armored Steel Lynx), so just don't think too much about it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Although as long as it's coupled with a solid base AP, I think the "-half" works just fine...

Maybe something like "-6 or -1/2 Armour, whichever is higher" could apply? That way it would have a solid base punch and do as well as intended against high-armour vehicles (or trolls).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Now I can have my summer house (house boat) and my winter house (zepplin). Things are moving up for my character.

All you need do now is combine them into a single vehicle... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Easy enough, that's one mod. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Easy enough, that's one mod. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Indeed... Got me one in the game we are playing in Hong Kong... Of course, the character is mostly retired for now...