320 BP and stuck in the barrens, is this doable and more importantly fun? Options

[The_Dood]

I've got a bunch of SR-verse illiterate players interested in playing. I want to start them out in the barrens slowly introducing them to the greater SR world. However, I don't want the PCs starting out as competent runners but rather I want them to grow into the role and will restrict them to 320 BP for character generation. So I have 2 questions:

Would you play a 320 BP character who couldn't leave the barrens?

Would you find it fun?

[Udoshi]

If you want to make 'weak' starting characters, for the love of god, make them use something like 500/550/600 Karmagen. (just do yourself a favor and hand out the usual free knowledge/ langauge points under this system, unless you WANT people to make bland characters). Or even Priority gen, with a handful of BP/karma for touchups, customization, and qualities.

May also want to lower the Availability limit, too.

300ish bp will generate a party of functional retards who somehow survived getting to young adult + without knowing stuff they really should, but don't, because they ran out of points.
Like Cooking. Or driving. Or breathing.

I think low power games can be fun. But you have to do it right, because if people are struggling with character creation, then they won't find your game interesting. And that is bad.

[Critias]

Be aware that a 320 point game means, for instance, just 160 points for Attributes, which is exactly (read: barely) enough to be "average" at every stat. That's...kind of underwhelming.

If that's what you're going for, knock yourself out, I guess. But my concern is that at lower points values, folks feel a need to min/max more, not less, in order to still try and claw together competent-feeling characters. The 80 points you're cutting out by knocking the starting level from 400 to 320 just might be the 80 points folks would spend on stuff that adds depth, character, and versatility. Be prepared. It takes 211 character points just to recreate the "Halloweeners Street Ganger" Grunt from SR4A p. 282, and they're pretty suck-tastic. If you mean for one of those guys to be 2/3 of your characters, you're on the right track, I guess.

I've got no qualms with a gritty street-level game that takes place mostly "off the grid" in the lawless, chaotic, Barrens -- I love the Barrens, personally, and set an awful lot of my own stuff there -- but rather than the premise of the game, I'm concerned with the power level you'd be using.

[Bushw4cker]

I did a Redmound Barrens Campaign, I let the Characters do 400BP, but restricted their skills and gear. Availability 4 and less, and no combat skills higher then 4. 320 is VERY low for starting out characters. You might as well do a wage slave "Office Space" campaign for 320.

[Medicineman]

I've got a bunch of SR-verse illiterate players interested in playing. I want to start them out in the barrens slowly introducing them to the greater SR world. However, I don't want the PCs starting out as competent runners but rather I want them to grow into the role and will restrict them to 320 BP for character generation. So I have 2 questions:

Would you play a 320 BP character who couldn't leave the barrens?

Would you find it fun?

Nooooh ! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
Please don't (for the Love of the Gods)
There are 2 Big Misconceptions in Your Post (ImO)
#1 : 400 BP Chars are NOT competent Runners !
These are starting Chars which are slightly more competent than the Average Goon(or Cop or whatever) in the SR World.
Don't be "mislead" by all the Min/MaxedChars You find here .These are made by People that know the Rules very well and can find every Loophole in the Rules.If Your Players are Newbs ,they will only have average Chars with average Attributes.
If You want to "keep Your SR World dirty" just restrict the Accessibility of Gear ('ware,Weapons,spcl Ammo, etc)
#2 Its NO FUN to play a "nerfed Char" ! The SR World is(ImO ) Tough enough for the Chars ,especially in the Barrens.
If their Attributes, Skills (and henceforth the Pools) are to small/low they won't succeed at even the simplest tasks
Its (ImO) a Big Mistake if You restrain beginning Players with only 320 BP

with a Free Dance
Medicineman

[Udoshi]

Yeah, i was in a game(shortlived though it was), who's entire premise was basically 'a bunch of runners got LUCKY on their first run, and made it big, but they're all rookies.'

I think the character design rules were '425 BP, but 50 of it MUST be spent on money. Yes, even the mage, and the skill cap was reduced by 1: one skill at 5, or two at 4.' Basically a jump in, everybody knows each other, have fun kind of game. It worked out well.

But yeah. Lowering the BP is NOT the way to do a street level game right.
Lowering the availability of items, the highest lifestyle available to limit starting, the skill caps, etc are all good ways to do this.
Making people spend 160 points max on attributes, when there's eight attributes and each point is 10 is NOT the way to do it.

I know I've suggested Karmagen. This is because under karmagen, costs scale as your ratings go up. It makes lowbie characters much more feasable, and tends to create more diverse interesting characters just by virtue of having rating 1 skills be cheap, so people can afford to dabble in things which make sense (like nearly everyone having the Electronics group because they've owned a commlink for most o their lives).

But my concern is that at lower points values, folks feel a need to min/max more, not less, in order to still try and claw together competent-feeling characters.

This is a good point and you should take it to heart. Instead, think about the effect on the characters in your game that you WANT(poor? Gritty? broke? Man keeping you down? Unskilled rookies?), and get it through other means.

[kerbarian]

But yeah. Lowering the BP is NOT the way to do a street level game right.
Lowering the availability of items, the highest lifestyle available to limit starting, the skill caps, etc are all good ways to do this.

I may be involved in a game soon with availability limits and such. I'm curious -- how do you keep magic-based characters from being relatively much stronger when no one can start with fancy 'ware or gear?

[redwulf25]

Another factor is that at the karma award rates in the books (if I did my math right and I may not have since I really need to get to sleep. I forget if a Karma = about 2BP or it's the other way around) you're looking at about 40 runs before they get to the standard 400BP level. Since runs often take more than one gaming session to complete we're talking probably about a full year 9-10 months if you go really fast or award more karma than standard.

[LurkerOutThere]

I may be involved in a game soon with availability limits and such. I'm curious -- how do you keep magic-based characters from being relatively much stronger when no one can start with fancy 'ware or gear?

You can't really unless you cap starting magic at somewhere around 3 or 4.

[Glyph]

You can't really unless you cap starting magic at somewhere around 3 or 4.

That's pretty much what you should do - same for resonance. No point in letting characters only start out with wired: 1 and muscle replacement: 1 if they can get improved reflexes: 3 with magic. It just makes everyone make an awakened character. You have a similar problem with metatypes - sure, they can't get muscle augmentation, but hey, they can still be a troll. And 320 point games, with only 160 points you can spend on Attributes, make metahuman Attribute bonuses that much more tempting.

Honestly, I don't see the point of the whole "start characters out weak and gradually introduce them to the wider SR world" thing. Low-powered games are great for seasoned roleplayers looking for a challenge, or something different. They suck for introducing new players to the game, though. They will be coming into the game expecting to play cyborgs with mohawks and metal arms, fireball-chucking tattooed dwarves, and Neo-like hackers, only to be told that they are a bunch of poor people living in the slums and eating rat cooked over a trashcan fire.

[LurkerOutThere]

Glyph is as they are often prone to be: right. If you want to introduce new players to SR a low powered game isn't the way to do it. ANy mistakes they make in character generation will be that much worse. Instead worry about your theme. First run should be something that is interchangable from something that could be found in a modern day movie like Heat or Ronin (although on smaller scale) with SR trapings. Once they have a feel for that you can start to get into more of the worlds unique flavor.

[Ryu]

I've got a bunch of SR-verse illiterate players interested in playing. I want to start them out in the barrens slowly introducing them to the greater SR world. However, I don't want the PCs starting out as competent runners but rather I want them to grow into the role and will restrict them to 320 BP for character generation. So I have 2 questions:

Would you play a 320 BP character who couldn't leave the barrens?

Would you find it fun?

No, not fun for me. I´m currently playing in a low-power 656 karma campaign, my char would have cost more than 400 BP, and it is a challenge to get stuff done. The idea of shaving about 100 BP from that one is terrible. The alternative on offer was 350 BP, and no one used it.

Plus your players will have to grow into the role anyway. If you want low-powered, insist on them playing tweaked archtypes.

[Wakshaani]

320 is the right level for 'ROokie RUnners' and a *fantastic* way to play. Better, in many ways, than 400, as every character has tons of growth remaining once you bring everything down to match. Here's what I use from my "320 challenge" from a few years back, which turned into my whole Philadelphia setting.

320 points for character creation. (This means no more than 160 points for baseline stats)

You may take a single skill at 5 or two at 4, max.

Skill Groups top out at 3 ranks.

Resources cap at 40 points, rather than 50 as normal.

Availability is capped at 8, rather than 12.

Contacts are capped at Level 4 on loyalty or influence.

Pretty much it for hard rules, but a general "Don't be a goober" MetaRule is applied. Trying to tweak things to a silly level just isn't needed. Characters should be good at what they do, sure, but not *crazy* good.

A good rule of thumb is for characters to toss 6-8 dice at their main skill(s), +2 for combat monkies. Tossing 4-6 dice at their backup skills is also keen. For example, the sample Rookie Faceman sports a Charisma of 5, Logic of 3, the Influence Pool at 3, and Leadership of 3. This gives him 8 dice for negotiation, con attempts, and etiquette, six dice for planning or digging the team out of the fire, and 7 dice for shooting a light pistol if pressed, but with his Body of 2, he'd much rather solve things non-painfully. The sample mage has a Magic of 3, Spellcasting 3, and Conjuring 3, letting him whip up Force 3 spirits with ease or cast minor spells, but with a 6 dice pool, he won't overwhelm anyone.

Everyone who starts playing around with it mentally starts going "Bleah! So wussy! How could you do this? Bleah!"

But as more example characters fall in, it starts clicking for people, until things start actually looking cool. If you compare the generic street sam of the 320 world to the standard, there's a *clear* division of power, but you can still have mages, deckers, everything. Heck, just for giggles, I even tossed together a "Vampire Secretary" for someone... just a low-level cog-pusher who was talked into a girl's night out and wound up getting infected. (oops!) Turns out her health plan didn't cover it, either, and the days she missed while recuperating got her fired. Welcome to the shadows! (D'oh!)

If you want, I can even drop off some example characters for you to use.

[suoq]

I forget if a Karma = about 2BP or it's the other way around)

There is no consistent relationship.

At the low end (skill 1&2 and specialization) 1 karma = 1 BP. At the high end, it can take a truckload of Karma to equal a little BP. It encourages a particular flavor of cheese: Get your 4+skills at chargen, round out your character with karma. Rounding out first and capping skills with karma is so cost-ineffective, it's punishing.

Yeah, it seems backwards to me too, but that's the behavior the system encourages.

[Ascalaphus]

I think I'm with Waakshani on this.. I think it's doable.

320BP means that you can get exactly average attributes, on average. That means you can still be excellent at something, just at a price.

You'll have to fix maximum starting Magic lower, maybe 4, that's enough to be able to use magic but not enough to totally rule with it.

[Ascalaphus]

Anyway, I think it's a matter of taste and a matter of expectations. The Barrens are one of the typical settings for SR, but with ordinary 400BP CharGen, I think you're really a notch above that.

I mean, you can easily be an exceptionally powerful mage, given how attributes (Magic) of 3 are supposed to be normal. A hacker could certainly spoof his way out. So could a good Face.

On the other side, that might be a setting thing. Why do people live in the Barrens? Because they're not strong enough to carve their way up, or because society is really so fucked-up that even high-potential people just never get a chance to enter civil society?

Maybe it's just really really hard to actually get out of the Barrens. Without a SIN, you're a probationary citizen, and basically the government doesn't want to give out SINs, because SINners are eligible for social security and all that stuff that costs the government money.

So the Barrens are actually filled with a lot of people who're denied social mobility, despite having real talent and potential.



That can be done with far less invasive rules: limits on Lifestyle, forbid the SINner quality, decree that everyone lives in the Barrens. But in those Barrens, they're not absolute rookies. They're just stuck there. Maybe the PCs dream of buying a SIN and a private island to retire to?

[Teulisch]

for new players, definitely have a few pre-gens built, especially for more difficult archtypes like the hacker. this also gives you the advantage of knowing what you can actually do with that many points. character generation is the most difficult part of starting a new game, and takes the most time. it also helps to offer a karma bonus for players who write a background for their character.

for their low point build, it may be a good idea to give them a 'free' contact or two, such as a fixer or Johnson.

lower availability limits could work for guns, but not necessarily for other gear. lowering availability of programs could cripple a hacker.

[Ascalaphus]

I'd just all give them the same Fixer as a contact for free. I mean, why make it hard on yourself as a GM to pitch jobs to them?

[Crazy Ivan]

Personally, I would enjoy a Barrens campaign, then work our way up. Makes us really appreciate our cyberware bonuses as we get by, and then if facing the corps, gives us something to fear.

[lunchbox311]

I ran a 300 BP campaign once. My group said it was one of the most fun adventures they ever had. They still have the characters and would love to have it run again sometime.

I had availability capped at 8, which did allow some good stuff, but not a ton.

Yes, there will be more trolls and orcs, the BP bonus is too good to pass up.

Overall it was VERY entertaining. When your main boss fight type encounter is 2 guys with wired 1 an ak-97's you get a feel for how gritty it can get (lots of wounded players and oh crap moments... even if the two guys could not hit the broad side of a barn without the suppressive fire rules.) I played them in very isolated very poor areas of a barrens area. They all had the same fixer to start with and did odd jobs for pittance money or drugs (or food at times.)

Others are correct in that it requires seasoned roleplayers and it also requires people to want to cooperate, otherwise you all die quickly.

[Summerstorm]

I think it would be great (You should uncap attributes from the /half BP rules though (Maybe one IS pretty clever or well trained. But don't let them take ultimate levels) Limit magic (and maybe edge) down to 3 maximum 4 at start.

Rest in skills (still no ultimate levels)

The one thing you really don't need is money.

Give free contacts for charisma.

I played such a campaign back in 3rd ed. It was totally awesome. I remember breaking into a shipping company to find ANYTHING of worth, so we could pay the gang to let us squatter in an abandoned house - and not beating us up -. All while trying to become "awesome shadowrunners ™", but no fixer would work with us, since we couldn't even appear to meetings in good clothes, acting like pro's.

Good fun.

[JanessaVR]

I've never really understood the appeal of low-level games, but that could be because I’ve been gaming for about 25 years now and have seen enough of them to last a lifetime. In our games, we run at 1,200 Karmagen. Our reasoning is thus. When you read the SR novels, you tend to deal with the movers and shakers of the world – characters who are involved with major events on a global scale; what they do *matters* to the world at large. Then you look at the official SR free adventures and you’re…the low-level flunkies of a low-level street gang whose job it is to smuggle things across town.

Yeah…

We’ve decided we prefer the former to the latter and to second what others have said here, I think new players will as well. My 0.02¥.

[Ascalaphus]

It's a matter of taste. Best thing to do: ask your players what they think is fun.



I get the appeal of high-level gaming, and I also get the appeal of the low-end. I really like the feeling of starting out humble, but eventually growing up powerful, taking down people you once couldn't take on.

[redwulf25]

It's a matter of taste. Best thing to do: ask your players what they think is fun.



I get the appeal of high-level gaming, and I also get the appeal of the low-end. I really like the feeling of starting out humble, but eventually growing up powerful, taking down people you once couldn't take on.

I just think it would be better to start out humble resources wise rather than starting out a near cripple with insufficient stats and skills. I like the ideas earlier in the thread about capping skills at one skill at 5 or two skills at 4, capping magic and resonance at 4 and capping the starting gear at 8 (I think adjusting the restricted gear quality to gear with a rating of 16 would also be in order).

[Ascalaphus]

Well, I think it can work with stats above 320BP, but on the other hand I think 400BP is more than you strictly need to be playable.

I think keeping magic, lifestyle and equipment under control is actually the bigger part of it. It's hard to play a convincing Barrens game if half the players go for High lifestyle or 200K in implants.