320 BP and stuck in the barrens, is this doable and more importantly fun? Options

[LurkerOutThere]

I'll ask this here because i've asked it elsewhere, do people really enjoy the roleplaying of being poor? I havn't been really really dirty poor in a long long time and to be honest even then I wasn't on the scale of something expressed by the SR barrens, but i've been close enough that revisiting it as a leisure activity doesn't appeal to me.

What is the attraction of a barrens game? Is it not consequences? It can't be the crippling poverty.

[JanessaVR]

I'll ask this here because i've asked it elsewhere, do people really enjoy the roleplaying of being poor? I havn't been really really dirty poor in a long long time and to be honest even then I wasn't on the scale of something expressed by the SR barrens, but i've been close enough that revisiting it as a leisure activity doesn't appeal to me.

What is the attraction of a barrens game? Is it not consequences? It can't be the crippling poverty.

I hear you. I've been pretty darn poor at one time in my life as well, many years ago, and that certainly colors my desire to not revisit it in gameplay. There's no "romantic appeal" to the typical SR cliche - sorry, "background" - of being "born on the streets" and working your way out for me. That concept has beaten to death with a rock in SR and all of my characters have *any* other background but that.

[suoq]

What is the attraction of a barrens game?

It's just a setting.
I'm old, so don't expect to get this reference, but my favorite comic was Grimjack. I still have every issue printed. I've introduced my son to them.

The whole point to Grimjack was that he wasn't a hero. He wasn't powerful. He was just an old guy who had survived with his own code of honor, a collection of scars, and friends he had a hard time accepting that he had.

In a way, I don't quite get risking your life on shadowruns when your cash, equipment, and gear can be sold for a couple of years worth of easy living, years you don't expect to see as a shadowrunner. I get trying to work your way out of the barrens, dreaming of maybe becoming a fixer or even a Mr. Johnson someday.

---------------------------------------------------

In retrospect, the difference between being rich and being poor wasn't nearly as big as the difference between being single and being married with children.

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Pt 2: More than the 320, I think it will serve you well to have everyone at the table know how many dice they should expect to roll in their specialties and how many dice in their secondaries. It helps people build characters that work well together.

[Glyph]

Part of the problem is that the cyberpunk portion of Shadowrun has its roots in dystopian worlds with a noir sensibility. Unfortunately, that can lead to people worrying about making their games "gritty" and making sure that the PCs can never really accomplish anything significant.

When overdone, these elements can be tired and contrived. Part of Shadowrun's appeal to me was that, while it had dystopian elements, things weren't completely hopeless - there were still social activists, still people trying to do the right thing, and so on.

I have enjoyed low-powered street punk games, when the PCs were lean and hungry, and out to break into the big leagues somehow. I would not enjoy a low-powered game where the PCs were pathetic losers, running from ghouls, doing errands for the local gang to keep from getting evicted from their squats, and crap like that.

[Wakshaani]

The reason I run with the 320 level is that I run what is, in effect, "CyberNoir" ... in a noir setting, characters are rarely the best in the world and, in truth, are just cogs in a giant machine, fully aware that, at the end of the day, nothing they do matters to mor ethan a handful of people and that they can't really change anything. It's dark in a way that punk echoes, but never reaches.

An old thing about Noir heroes was this, "A true hero is the right person who does the right thing for the right reasons. In noir, one of those is wrong."

This is where you get your rumpled salarymen, your highschool dropouts who got addicted to combat drugs and willingly lopped off parts to get cyber, where cool professionals exist, but can put the fear into you.

Heck, the prototypical CYberpunk story is Neuromancer, where Molly Millions had to buy cutrate wires that left her with chroinc shakes and the lead lied about his headware storage and had to use compression tricks just to try and get by. These aren't the movers and shakers who would lock horns with Lofwyr and smugly beat Damien Knight at a game of chess.

Sometimes, it's nice to have a group that says, "Well, there's four guys at the door. We'll have to think of another way in."

The 320 level does that, giving everyone room to shine, but, at the same time, they get to grow.

At 400, if your Samurai takes Automatics 6 at the start, where does he go from there? Or, worse, someone that takes a 7? They're *done*. There's no training needed, no hunt for mentors, no "Hey, this guy has a secret technique that no one else knows..." You're the top of the heap, as good as anyone can possibly be ... day one, right out of chargen.

I'm not saying 320 is *better*, I'm saying that it's *different* and, with it, the types of story that you can tell are quite different. If you're squeaking by on a low, or even a squatter, lifestyle, trying to make ends meet as a low-end Shadowrunner, when Leloo Dallas falls into your life, the easy thing to do is hand her over and pocket the reward money. The story that unfolds is quite a bit different than if you fly around the world and take up new identities and safehouses.

So, you know ... different strokes for different folks.

[Critias]

They're legitimate (and flavorful) points you're making, Wak, but none of that is inherent at the 320 level and consistently absent at the 400. It all comes down -- always, regardless of points level or karmagen or anything else -- to how efficiently the characters are made, or how min/maxed the characters are, or however you want to say it. I don't think there's a huge power gap between 320 and 400, except for the fact that players will be (if left to their own devices) more likely to "trim the fat."

They'll still try to make that Street Sam with Automatics 6, they'll just have even crappier dump stats and even lower social skills, in other words, in order to get it. Some will focus on one or two amazing die pools in order to still feel comfortable and competent, and their characters will just be even shallower in order to see their one-trick-pony do his one trick.

Getting a swanky cybernoir feeling out of a campaign has, in my experience, very little to do with the points level. It has quite a bit more to do with the overall GMing style, what aspects of the canon setting you focus on and which you ignore, what optional rules you do (or don't) use, what creation guidelines you offer (not just hard rules and availability limits), and how well the GM and the players are "on the same page" about the type of game that's about to be played.

You can make a hard-boiled private eye at 400 points, that can still feel like (and be) the down-on-his-luck underdog in plenty of fights, that can still be far, far, from a major mover and shaker -- it all just depends on how you spend those points. Likewise, you can make a 320 point silly/stupid killing machine (just look at one recent thread about how ridiculous starting armor can be, and shuffle a few of those ideas in with the recent thread about how ridiculous a marksman die pool can be, and spend 160 points on each, and voila)...

If all the rest of that stuff isn't lined up just right, another 80 points one way or the other isn't going to make the sweet spot "cybernoir" happen, y'know? If one guy is trying to play Deckard and the other one wants to be Major Kusanagi, the starting character points aren't gonna make a lick of difference. It's the social contract between players and GMs that will, in the end, set the tone for a game of Shadowrun; not the character points and creation rules.

[Medicineman]

The 320 level does that, giving everyone room to shine, but, at the same time, they get to grow.

At 400, if your Samurai takes Automatics 6 at the start, where does he go from there? Or, worse, someone that takes a 7? They're *done*. There's no training needed, no hunt for mentors, no "Hey, this guy has a secret technique that no one else knows..." You're the top of the heap, as good as anyone can possibly be ... day one, right out of chargen.

I Think that is a double Misunderstanding
First
with 320 BP the Chars have no chance to shine. With an average Attribute of 3 and maybe a Skill of 3 (as a Mainskill) they have a Pool of 6 Dice and won't expect more than two successes wth 6 Dice(without any Modifiers !!)
Second
Its quite possible to Play a Noir & Gritty Campaign with 400 BP if the Players know about the Setting !
Just Tell them: OK we're plaing Noir&Gritty ,please no Chars with a Skill of 6,no Panther Assaultcannon,No Magic 6&Initiate 2 Chars etc,etc
Cooperation with the Players is always better than restraints that gimp a Char !
400 BP are even better suited for the N&G campaign because than they have a Chance to survive the first encounters
with only 320 GP sensible Players will "shy away" from any kind of fight

with a N&G Dance
Medicineman

[Glyph]

The point that 400 BP doesn't have to discourage weaker characters has been addressed already. Personally, if you go ahead and do a "low-powered" campaign, you are still better off with 400 BP characters. Set caps on Availability, resources, starting skills (lower them by one), and special Attributes such as Magic - but you will have people who can at least have above average Attributes and a decent spread of skills (600 Karma karmagen works even better for this).

I would also argue against 400 BP characters who max out something having nowhere else to go. Being the best in the world in a single skill does not equate to being the best in a single role. So you're the best gunslinger in the world. Are you as good at soaking damage, using other weapons, noticing ambushes, springing your own?

Don't get me wrong, I think being able to start at the hard caps is still a flaw of the system. But the system does a good job of making those last few points disproportionately expensive enough that only the most dedicated will get them. A hyperspecialist is usually not the most optimal build, and there will be lots and lots of ways to laterally improve the character in ways that make them more effective at their main specialty.

[PoliteMan]

I don't think 320 BP is a good idea for newbs. A more experienced player might have fun with it.

I would impose the previously mentioned caps but leave them with 400 BP for two reasons.

#1 SR is a complicated system, especially things like magic and the Matrix. They're going to make suboptimal choices during character creation. 320 BP will punish them for those mistakes.
#2 If you limit their ability to buy stats, skills, and gear, then they're going to end up spending those points on contacts and a variety of low level skills. And that's great. It creates really well-rounded characters and introduces the players to a wide variety of skills.

If everything goes right, you should end up with an Agility 5 Automatics 4 Street Sam with 20 points in contacts and the Wilderness, Electronics, and Influence Skill group. Which is cool, as long as you remember they're going to be rolling like 4 dice so a success should be success.

[Nifft]

I built some gang-level pre-gens for a game (which was fun), and I found that 400 BP was still rather tight.

I'd suggest 400 BP but with these limits:
- No magic at character generation, but you can Awaken any time after, buying up Magic and magic-related skills with Karma.
- No cyber or bioware at character generation, but you are free to buy it once play starts.
- No expensive races like Drakes or Shapeshifters.
- Minimum competencies for gang-related skills, like:

• at least 2 ranks of Pistols or the Firearms group
• at least 2 ranks of either Con, Intimidate, or the Influence group
• at least 2 ranks of Unarmed Combat or the Close Combat group
• at least 2 ranks of Infiltration or the Stealth group

You end up with a bunch of dudes who have more aspirations than augmentations. The story is about how they progress towards their ambitions.

[Wakshaani]

Should I drop some example characters in here, for how the 320 level can work?

[Medicineman]

Shure
Why not (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

HokaHey
Medicineman

[Glyph]

Should I drop some example characters in here, for how the 320 level can work?

You mean like these?

You can make nice, decent 320 point characters, true, but those babies were crafted by seasoned players for the most part. Beginning players often have a hard time making a decent character with the default 400 points. I think the other limitations (lower maximum starting skills, Availability, resources, and Magic or Resonance) are what really determines the power level. Giving them 400 points means they can make their weaker characters more well-rounded, at least.

[The_Dood]

Appreciate the feedback guys and I've incorporated most of it into my character generation outline provided below. This is for a Tech-Noir game where it is all about the average man. I also hope being restricted from taking high levels of Attributes, Skills, Contacts or Gear and having to take 1 negative quality, 320 BP is more than it seems.

CODE

320 pt characters
Magic or Resonance limited to 3 or less.
Skill cap of four.
Must take at least 1 Negative Quality from the following list:
* Addiction (Moderate or higher)
* Scorched
* Simsense Vertigo
* Spirit Bane
* Uncouth
* Amnesia (10 BP version only)
* Bad Rep
* Big Regret
* Borrowed Time
* In Debt
* Lost Loved One
The Day Job, Restricted Gear, and Trust Fund qualities are not allowed.    
Gear Availability capped at 8
Maximum of 25 bp spent on resources.
Contact loyality and Connection rating is limited to 3
Low or lower lifestyle only

[Summerstorm]

Hm.. looks okayish for me.

But i really wouldn't cap loyality rating of contacts or force a negative quality. (Good that you allow a range, but i like my freedom with my character)
Also i wouldn't cap the attribute on half BP and MIGHT allow magic 4 in some cases.

The one thing you just HAVE to have a look at: Does the character fit, is he able to have survived so far in the barrens?

25 BP ressources is a bit high for my taste though. (Depending on the character of course, some MIGHT need more or less... i am never so rigid with the rules and limitations)

[The_Dood]

Also i wouldn't cap the attribute on half BP and MIGHT allow magic 4 in some cases.

Sorry, I've always used 200 points for attributes and will continue to do so for this campaign. Never realized it was half starting BP pool.

[JanessaVR]

Well, if that's the campaign you're looking to run hopefully your characters will survive a session or two. I still say "better them than me," though. I just can't help think that with those ability/stat scores it would be a far better career choice to steal cars and sell them to chop-shops than to actually risk being a shadowrunner. I'm not sure I'd expect to survive any violent altercations on a mission, which would make me super risk-averse in such a game, but that's me. Good luck with your new players, hope they like the SR world and stick around.

[Glyph]

I would add one more suggestion - this looks like a low-powered noir game more than a game of Barrens rats, so I would suggest: DON'T set it in the Barrens. There are lots and lots of poor, crime-ridden neighborhoods in Seattle which would fit a noir setting far better. The Barrens are a hellish wasteland that resembles Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, more than a noir setting. You are better off setting it in a decaying area that still has a semblance of infrastructure, where you can have more traditional noir NPCs such as legbreakers, strippers, bookies, pawn shop owners, underworld enforcers, and the occasional crooked Knight Errant officer.

[Wakshaani]

You mean like these?

Whoah! You found the old thread!

I'm impressed!

(I recycled one of them, Lady Promethea, into one of the new examples for people, however. Huh! Didn't know it was still round.)

[redwulf25]

I would add one more suggestion - this looks like a low-powered noir game more than a game of Barrens rats, so I would suggest: DON'T set it in the Barrens. There are lots and lots of poor, crime-ridden neighborhoods in Seattle which would fit a noir setting far better. The Barrens are a hellish wasteland that resembles Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, more than a noir setting. You are better off setting it in a decaying area that still has a semblance of infrastructure, where you can have more traditional noir NPCs such as legbreakers, strippers, bookies, pawn shop owners, underworld enforcers, and the occasional crooked Knight Errant officer.

Wait. There are non crooked Knight Errant officers?

[The_Dood]

I would add one more suggestion - this looks like a low-powered noir game more than a game of Barrens rats, so I would suggest: DON'T set it in the Barrens. There are lots and lots of poor, crime-ridden neighborhoods in Seattle which would fit a noir setting far better. The Barrens are a hellish wasteland that resembles Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, more than a noir setting. You are better off setting it in a decaying area that still has a semblance of infrastructure, where you can have more traditional noir NPCs such as legbreakers, strippers, bookies, pawn shop owners, underworld enforcers, and the occasional crooked Knight Errant officer.

Any suggestions, I can't think of any off the top of my head.

[Glyph]

Just going by the Seattle 2072 book, there are large parts Tacoma, Everett, and Auburn that range from working-class poor neighborhoods to slums. What I don't like about the Barrens is that they are so walled off - noir level runners should occasionally have to butt heads with rednecks from Snohomish, or try to blend in in Bellevue, or get invited to a meet in a fancy downtown restaurant by a Johnson that uses the opulent surroundings to attempt to intimidate them.