Magic in space with Astral Hazing, I just had a WTF moment Options

[Dakka Dakka]

Are characters with Astral Hazing supposed to be the optimal Space-Mages? At least that's what the book says:

Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, the character always stands at the heart of a Rating 4 background count (see p. 117, Street Magic) that extends a number of meters from her body equal to her Essence; this background count also impairs her own actions if the character is Awakened. If she remains in one place for long, the background count expands by one meter in every direction every two or three hours (at the gamemaster’s discretion).

I really wished the authors would pay more attention to what they write.

[Stahlseele]

you are aware, that BGC and Shallow are additive or the higher counts?

[Yerameyahu]

Heh. Even if it worked, it'd merely be an error, not a real aspect of the setting/game.

[Dakka Dakka]

you are aware, that BGC and Shallow are additive or the higher counts?

Huh? Astral Shallows have nothing to do with Background Count. They are merely places where you can look into one plane form the other.
If you meant Mana Ebbs and Voids instead, those do not add up either. Man Voids are from -12 to -7 BGC and Ebbs from -6 to -1. You are always either in one or in the other. Moreover the rules state that regardless of the ambient mana conditions the character makes his surroundings a +/- 4 Mana Ebb/Domain. We do not know which it is but it does not make a difference, except for Astral Perception.

Heh. Even if it worked, it'd merely be an error, not a real aspect of the setting/game.

I sure hope so.

[Aerospider]

The Astral Hazing quality does specify it produces an aspected domain, so that's a +4 background count.

I'm coming round to the idea. It makes for an interesting angle for such people to be of great utility to the megacorps in space. Kidnapping a reluctant hazer and delivering him to a corp so they can stick him in an orbital lab for the next research cycle or two could be a perfectly good run to play.

[pbangarth]

I've always played it that if two BGCs overlapped, the greater of the two prevailed. I can't find the text to support this position, however. And the Astral Hazing text does say "Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, the character always stands at the heart of a Rating 4 background count" (RC, page 116).

Now, it also says "taints astral space around her." Does outer space have astral space at all? Street Magic (page 119) describes outer space as a mana void, but also shows that mana fields can be formed there by the introduction of life, such as the greenhouse at the station called Eden in the vignette on page 111. So, if enough life forms together can generate a mana field, then it looks as if a character with Astral Hazing should be able to do it also.

Cool.

[Yerameyahu]

And it's aspected to 'chaotic detrimental mess for all traditions and users', if there were any justice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Hagga]

Spirit rather than the letter and all that, sometimes, is the only way to keep things normal and sane.

[Dakka Dakka]

Spirit rather than the letter and all that, sometimes, is the only way to keep things normal and sane.

In a world with dragons as corporate CEOs either interpretation is as (in)sane a the other. the literal one though has more "interesting" consequences. Also how but in the literal way would you play areas lesser BGC than space?

[HunterHerne]

Honestly, I think house ruling it is the best idea, regardless of which way you go. The idea of Astral hazing is that the character generates a mana field themselves, so I think this could offset the lack of mana (ebb, or void). However, as it is aspected, I don't think it would mix well with domains and warps, unless it had a similar aspect. I would say in domains, whichever is higher wins, and Warps always win.

[Bodak]

Now, it also says "taints astral space around her." Does outer space have astral space at all?

AH addresses that point here. You could go with either the ruling that outer space produces polluted mana or no mana depending on which quotes you want to cherry-pick. Perhaps like most magic, nobody knows for sure - that's why there are so many contradictory theories.

[Demonseed Elite]

AH addresses that point here. You could go with either the ruling that outer space produces polluted mana or no mana depending on which quotes you want to cherry-pick. Perhaps like most magic, nobody knows for sure - that's why there are so many contradictory theories.

It is worth noting that AH's quotes in that thread are from SR3. AH was involved in the freelancer/developer discussions when I took over writing the chapter on Astral Space in Street Magic. The language and mechanics in SR3 were extremely confusing and unclear, something we sought to address in Street Magic. Page 119 of Street Magic is much more clear that space lacks mana and Street Magic also clearly divided voids from mana warps by putting them on opposite ends of the background count spectrum, unlike SR3.

[Sengir]

The idea of Astral hazing is that the character generates a mana field themselves,

Well, that is the question: Does Astral Hazing produce "bad" mana, or does it taint an existing manasphere?

[Aku]

I feel like, purely from an engrish language perspective, you need something in order to haze it. ex: Phi Beta Kappa didnt have any new recruits this year, therefore the yearly hazing did not take place.

[Stahlseele]

I feel like, purely from an engrish language perspective, you need something in order to haze it. ex: Phi Beta Kappa didnt have any new recruits this year, therefore the yearly hazing did not take place.

ok, you, 5 bucks into the bad play of words jar . .

[Rubic]

I feel like, purely from an engrish language perspective, you need something in order to haze it. ex: Phi Beta Kappa didnt have any new recruits this year, therefore the yearly hazing did not take place.

ok, you, 5 bucks into the bad play of words jar . .

That's actually not a terrible analogy. Not the best, but still not terrible.

[Dakka Dakka]

If there were no astral plane in space, how can awakened people expose themselves to it and go mad/die from it?

[Yerameyahu]

Magic. Also, like a fish out of water.

[HunterHerne]

If there were no astral plane in space, how can awakened people expose themselves to it and go mad/die from it?

I suppose it would be the equivalent of exposing your meat body to space. There is absolutely nothing there, so you essentially explosively decompress. Your astral body begins breaking down. I think if it ever came up, I would have it as an essance loss scenario, exposure to the "astral" of space begins taking a part of what makes your spiritual mind and body connected (with a willpower check to avoid an actual negative quality associated with that loss).

[Aerospider]

Magic. Also, like a fish out of water.

So do fish not excrete on dry land because there's no liquid to contaminate?

Ok, enough with the analogies. Astral space does exist in space but there's no mana, the absence of which is what makes it so painful. The wording of the quality is unambiguous - it refers to the ambient mana conditions. Background count is possible in space by virtue of there being astral space, so whether the 'hazer' is on a space walk or surrounded by lots of lovely plants in Eden, the quality does work by RAW. If it doesn't sit comfortably then house-rule it as you see fit, but the text stands for itself.

[Rubic]

I suppose it would be the equivalent of exposing your meat body to space. There is absolutely nothing there, so you essentially explosively decompress. Your astral body begins breaking down. I think if it ever came up, I would have it as an essance loss scenario, exposure to the "astral" of space begins taking a part of what makes your spiritual mind and body connected (with a willpower check to avoid an actual negative quality associated with that loss).

If that IS the case, and even the fact that it's a possibility, would mean corps would LOVE to test the theory of sending the magically active up in space accompanied by a hazer, who very well might create a haze regardless of baground count, warps, or voids.

[Yerameyahu]

Aerospider, focus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) "how can awakened people expose themselves to it and go mad/die from it?" … like a fish out of water. These are called jokes. Not *good* jokes, but not things meriting misguided srs responses.

Anyway, most people aren't saying it doesn't work by RAW. They're saying it's stupid and typically short-sighted RAW. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Fikealox]

Astral space does exist in space but there's no mana, the absence of which is what makes it so painful. The wording of the quality is unambiguous - it refers to the ambient mana conditions. Background count is possible in space by virtue of there being astral space, so whether the 'hazer' is on a space walk or surrounded by lots of lovely plants in Eden, the quality does work by RAW. If it doesn't sit comfortably then house-rule it as you see fit, but the text stands for itself.

This is my take, too. I wouldn't go so far as to claim that the quality is completely unambiguous, but I agree that this is the best interpretation of the text. Plus, the mechanism seems logical to me. I'm having a bit of a harder time conceptualising how Astral Hazing would work in a Mana Warp.

[Aerospider]

Aerospider, focus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) "how can awakened people expose themselves to it and go mad/die from it?" … like a fish out of water. These are called jokes. Not *good* jokes, but not things meriting misguided srs responses.

Anyway, most people aren't saying it doesn't work by RAW. They're saying it's stupid and typically short-sighted RAW. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It was a terrible joke, but my response was no better if you couldn't tell it was similarly tongue in cheek. Perhaps I need to be less stingy with the emoticons...

Ok, so, besides yours there are no posts that say the rule is stupid and only a couple that imply it. Nobody so far has come close to presenting a rationale as to why this thing is actually a problem. So can someone help me see the supposed brokenness before I start thinking up some space-related runs?

[Demonseed Elite]

Ok, enough with the analogies. Astral space does exist in space but there's no mana, the absence of which is what makes it so painful.

Exactly correct. This is the way it was meant to be expressed.

The wording of the quality is unambiguous - it refers to the ambient mana conditions. Background count is possible in space by virtue of there being astral space, so whether the 'hazer' is on a space walk or surrounded by lots of lovely plants in Eden, the quality does work by RAW. If it doesn't sit comfortably then house-rule it as you see fit, but the text stands for itself.

I agree that the wording is unambiguous, though to me it's a very poor idea. It doesn't really make much sense that hazers generate a mana field; it would make much more sense that they attract ambient mana and "flavor" it. But that would require there being ambient mana to begin with, which in my interpretation would mean that a background count higher than 4 or -4 would nullify the hazing effect. In the case of -4 or below, there is not enough ambient mana for the hazer to attract. In the case of +4 or higher, the local conditions drawing and shaping the mana are stronger than the hazer's nature.

But because of the way it's written, that's more of a house ruling.