Magic in space with Astral Hazing, I just had a WTF moment Options

[Yerameyahu]

It's not broken, per se. It's not a *problem*. Space is not really important to Shadowrun (the game).

What *is* silly is a Negative quality enabling something that's not really supposed to be possible in the setting. And I agree with Demonseed Elite about the unconditional 'override' effect of Astral Hazing; that doesn't make sense either. Ergo, bad RAW. Just like the fact that Astral Hazing is the go-to magic *defense* 'positive' quality, and the crazy ideas about geomancing it into a full benefit, etc.

[Demonseed Elite]

They took the language for the Astral Hazing negative quality exactly (word-for-word) from the astral hazing side effect of cybermancy. Except the latter is tied into balancing the whole process of cybermancy and alone the negative quality doesn't make as much sense with that wording.

[Rubic]

Astral Hazing isn't the universal magic defense; spells cast from outside the haze still have full effect, I guess the way that shooting a bullet into water doesn't immediately make it significantly slower just after penetrating the surface.

[Yerameyahu]

I don't think that's the case, Rubic. At least, that's not what I've seen many people saying. *shrug*

[Stahlseele]

Ahem, casting into background reduces spells by the backgrounds level.
so even a force 8 spell is at 50% capacity o.O
as for shooting into water: mythbusters confirmed that one, especially high speed bullets simply shatter when hitting water . .

[Dakka Dakka]

Have you plucked your response from my mind? I wanted to write the exact same thing.

[Stahlseele]

It is a dirty, dirty place . . *snickers* ^^

[Rubic]

I don't think that's the case, Rubic. At least, that's not what I've seen many people saying. *shrug*

I've seen many people say many things that didn't hold up to scrutiny to game rules as written, etc. Some of the most egregious powergaming I've been informed of has dealt with purposeful mishandling or misreading of rules, spells, abilities, etc. One example, the Permanency spell in D&D 3.5 lists specific spells that it can make permanent. Most of the abuses of permanency I've heard involve spells NOT on the acceptable list.

The flavor text of Astral Hazing would indicate that it creates a "Toxic" background count, aiding any toxic magicians casting within. The text regarding background count is:

"Pre-existing wards, mana barriers, active foci, sustained
spells, and quickened/anchored spells are similarly affected.
Reduce their Force by the absolute value of the background
count." - SM p. 118, bottom right side

Nowhere in the text does it list affecting instant duration spells cast from OUTSIDE of the background count. Granted, I was not aware of the bullets and water being a myth, but RAW, even if not exactly as intended, would make Astral Hazing less of a BP-granting bonus power. The only remaining breakage I could see is a Toxic magic user taking this to augment their toxic mana.

[Aku]

As I understand it, the problem is that in general, outer space is supposed to be a mana-less/magic-less area, but with this argument, a mage can "create" an area around themselves, that HAS mana, therefore, they can cast spells.

[HunterHerne]

As I understand it, the problem is that in general, outer space is supposed to be a mana-less/magic-less area, but with this argument, a mage can "create" an area around themselves, that HAS mana, therefore, they can cast spells.

This is true. However, even going by strict RAW, their magic is still reduced by 4, and they take +4 drain to all casting. That can still be problematic (for the non-heavily-initiated).

If you subscribe to the overriding effect, then they most likely can't cast at all, or will suffer very deadly drain. Even with the "Let it add" ideas, a character would have to have magic maxed, and initiated 3 times (while increasing magic) in order to cast in an absolute Mana void of 12 (which is what I would rule most space areas to be), and would get +8 to the drain of any spell.

It's not broken, I think, in the last two areas for sure, and in the first only if they are abusing it in a space-focused campaign. Such is the nature of space in Shadowrun, not exactly common.

[Yerameyahu]

Rubic, it's BC, and follows the rules for BC. AFAIK, that means incoming spells are affected. Perhaps not. I'm not going to assume that the majority of experienced players I've seen talking about it here are wrong, though.

[HunterHerne]

Rubic, it's BC, and follows the rules for BC. AFAIK, that means incoming spells are affected. Perhaps not. I'm not going to assume that the majority of experienced players I've seen talking about it here are wrong, though.

I just re-read the section myself, and even though I could have an old PDF that has been corrected, it does indeed not mention incoming spells.

[Rubic]

if Astral Hazing really does override the mana void of space, then every corp would be scrambling to hire, at high cost, a "magical escort" for their prized magical employees during sub-orbital, orbital, and Eden flights. "So, you can feel itchy for a few hours, or you can have a severe burning sensation all over your skin while your mental faculties implode and fade. Otherwise, it'll be 2 more hours travel time and a near-certainty your luggage will be sent to Cambodia by way of Madagascar. Either way, enjoy your flight to Paris."

[Draco18s]

Rubic, it's BC, and follows the rules for BC. AFAIK, that means incoming spells are affected. Perhaps not. I'm not going to assume that the majority of experienced players I've seen talking about it here are wrong, though.

This. Astral Hazing creates an area of background count, and therefore follows ALL of the rules for background counts, which means a stunbolt cast into it gets reduced in force.

[Demonseed Elite]

This. Astral Hazing creates an area of background count, and therefore follows ALL of the rules for background counts, which means a stunbolt cast into it gets reduced in force.

Back up a second. Provide a rules reference please.

When I wrote the Fourth Edition background count rules, they would not modify spells cast into the area of background count. Unless the spell is sustained, anchored, or quickened because those spells are maintained by a constant framework of mana. Instantaneous spells are formed of mana where they are cast and if the mana where they are cast is sufficient, they will be fine. They don't stick around long enough to be fizzled or warped by the background count. That may have been changed by errata since, I'm just not aware of it.

Not sure why it's so hard to find errata on CGL's site, but this is the most recent Street Magic errata I could locate.

[Dakka Dakka]

Exactly and (at the GM's discretion) the area of BC expands every few hours, if the Hazer stays in the same place. One full immersion tank and the hazer will be a very small part of the cost of a space station.

[Rubic]

This. Astral Hazing creates an area of background count, and therefore follows ALL of the rules for background counts, which means a stunbolt cast into it gets reduced in force.

Demonseed Elite already addressed this, but I'll point out, I quoted rules and gave page numbers in the book. Where's the rules backing up YOUR stance on this?

Granted, Astral Hazing is a good negative quality for a mage-hunter, but not an end-all to magic resistance.

Edit: re: Mythbusters, they did confirm an 8-ft direct penetration capacity for smaller caliber firearms, though at a 25-30 degree angle, a penetration depth of approx. 3 feet for a 50-cal sniper rifle. This does not mean a sniper rifle can't penetrate 3 feet of water. It means it can only go down 3 feet at a 25-30 degree angle. I'll let the math and physics majors do the math out for that triangulation.

[Aerospider]

if Astral Hazing really does override the mana void of space, then every corp would be scrambling to hire, at high cost, a "magical escort" for their prized magical employees during sub-orbital, orbital, and Eden flights. "So, you can feel itchy for a few hours, or you can have a severe burning sensation all over your skin while your mental faculties implode and fade. Otherwise, it'll be 2 more hours travel time and a near-certainty your luggage will be sent to Cambodia by way of Madagascar. Either way, enjoy your flight to Paris."

Except that magicians are fine in space if they stay away from Magic and the astral. Likewise they can be quite comfortable in the presence of a Hazing character if they keep to all things mundane.

On reflection I wonder just how valuable they are to space projects really. Is there any point to magical research in space if it's not about being in a mana void?

[Dakka Dakka]

The problem is the text about the effects of Background Count does not address what happens if a non-sustained spell travels into or out of BGC.
If you read it RAW the astral hazer or anyone standing in the BGC can be affected normally by Permanent and Instantaneous Spells, but Sustained Spells cast from outside the hazed area have their Force reduced by 4. I doubt this is the intention of the rule.

[Rubic]

The problem is the text about the effects of Background Count does not address what happens if a non-sustained spell travels into or out of BGC.
If you read it RAW the astral hazer or anyone standing in the BGC can be affected normally by Permanent and Instantaneous Spells, but Sustained Spells cast from outside the hazed area have their Force reduced by 4. I doubt this is the intention of the rule.

Demonseed Elite wrote the rule. Read above for what s/he has to say about it. It goes with what has been pointed out by myself, and by others around the forums. Astral Hazing is not Magic Armor. It dampens continuous effects inside of it's area of influence (things that require a sustained mana-based framework), but does not dampen any sudden burst of mana shooting inside of it (like a power bolt or mana bolt). Instantaneous effects cast from outside of the sphere do not exist long enough within the mana field to be dampened before they create their effect and dissipate on their own.

[Stahlseele]

Back up a second. Provide a rules reference please.

When I wrote the Fourth Edition background count rules, they would not modify spells cast into the area of background count. Unless the spell is sustained, anchored, or quickened because those spells are maintained by a constant framework of mana. Instantaneous spells are formed of mana where they are cast and if the mana where they are cast is sufficient, they will be fine. They don't stick around long enough to be fizzled or warped by the background count. That may have been changed by errata since, I'm just not aware of it.

Not sure why it's so hard to find errata on CGL's site, but this is the most recent Street Magic errata I could locate.

This means fuck the rating 12 background count, stand outside, cast direct combat spells into it as if it did not exist?

[Dakka Dakka]

Control Manipulations are even weirder. Influence just goes through a Mana Void/Surge like a hot knife through butter, but Control Thoughts below Force 13 simply fizzles.

[Demonseed Elite]

If you have the luxury of standing outside an area of background count and using "clean" mana to form your direct combat spells, absolutely, you should be doing that. One does not always have that luxury, though.

There are a few weird spells, yes. Those spells tend to be weird by nature of the system. Influence creates a permanent post-hypnotic suggestion. Once placed, it can't be removed by any magical or counter-magical efforts. Yet the caster can remove it any time. How does that work? I have no idea. It's a weird spell.

Many Permanent spells are touch-range, meaning you're going to be subject to the background count anyway. The few Permanent, Line-of-Sight ranged spells are interesting cases and I could make a case for them being subject to background count if the target is within it.

[Demonseed Elite]

Another facet of this is the idea of "astral mechanics." The Astral Plane doesn't follow physical laws, it follows its own laws. For an instantaneous spell to be altered by background count, you need to assume that an instantaneous spell "travels" through an area of background count. There was discussion about this back when Street Magic was being written and I posited that instantaneous spells do not travel. The mana is gathered and shaped at the caster, a link is formed to the target, and the effect instantaneously occurs at the link. This is why there is no travel time based on range. It is also why there is no travel time when using a material, sympathetic or symbolic link to cast ritual magic regardless of how far away the target is. The spell does not travel along the intervening space. This is an odd concept if you think about physical space and physical laws, but it's normal behavior in Astral Space, where spirits can take metaplanar shortcuts to cross immense physical distances.

Mana barriers alter the ability to form the links, which is why they have an effect on spells targeting someone on the other side. This is also why mana barriers impede astral tracking, because the link itself is impeded even if no spell has been cast. Background count, though, is a function of availability and quality of mana and nothing more. If you're not using that mana, you're unaffected. Note that background count has no effect on ritual magic unless the ritual casters are casting within the background count. That's because the manipulation of mana is happening at the casters themselves, not at the target on the other side of the link.

[Draco18s]

When I wrote the Fourth Edition background count rules, they would not modify spells cast into the area of background count. Unless the spell is sustained, anchored, or quickened because those spells are maintained by a constant framework of mana. Instantaneous spells are formed of mana where they are cast and if the mana where they are cast is sufficient, they will be fine. They don't stick around long enough to be fizzled or warped by the background count. That may have been changed by errata since, I'm just not aware of it.

Really? So I can fireball the moon at my whim.

Good to know.