[X] My Assistant

[Sphynx]

I recently (due to a recent thread) dusted off the old BP Expansion page inspired by Infinity Cubed back on the old Forums. You can access them at http://shadowrun.i-sphynx.com/BP.htm, suggestions and comments are welcome as I'm currently in the mood to update/expand it.

:nuyen: Sphynx :nuyen:

[Buzzed]

I definately don't like the flaw.

Its like taking a "failed physical skill flaw" . Preventing the player from ever learning "Clubs" for example.

[Buzzed]

I also think the 1,2,4 costs... nm sphynx is right.

[Buzzed]

Also, astral projection should be 3 in my opinion. 3+3 = 6, well worth it in my opinion.

[Buzzed]

The Power points cost for points gained beyond the magic rating seems way to cheap for adepts. At 3 points, hell Everyone would be making adepts with roughly 15 power points to purchase abilities with... Leaves lots of room for making unbalanced characters at the beginning.

Points beyond the magic rating should be more, not less. As it is right now, points up to 6 cost 4 each (magic rating cost plus 2). Points beyond are at 3 points.

Adept points should cost 2 always, and rule that they cannot exceed their magic rating. Therefore if they want 11 power points, they would need to purshase a magic rating of 6 AND purchase 5 grades of initiation AND purchase 11 power points. Now that seems more balanced.

Remember, the magic rating teh adept has can also be used to work with purchasing the other non-adept magic abilities. Maybe it should be more then 2 points.

I see this system not penalising for being an Adept/magician. It's basically a 2 for 1 deal. kind of game breaking.

[Sphynx]

I agree the Flaw is abuseable (take it with Techs you never plan to learn anyhows) which is why it's only a 1 point flaw.

As for the other comments, you have to keep it in line with current costs. Right now, using the system you can make a Full Mage for 30 points and an Aspected for 25. Raising the costs will exceed the current costs of 30 and 25 which is not a good thing unless you want to discourage Magic. Lastly, 1, 2, 4 can't be 2, 4, 6 because to keep the Aspected type of Shamanic or Elementalist at 25, the 2nd level of conjuring and sorcery need to be at half the value of the 3rd, so ut'd need to be either 2, 4, 8 or 1, 3, 6, both which would cost the BP to use Magic to exceed their current BP values.

Sphynx

[TinkerGnome]

Magic Group membership should also have a points cost attached (since it costs karma and is a powerful advantage). Also the 2 point version of sorcery and conjuring isn't overly balanced for some totems/idols. A 3 point version might be well placed (at GM discression, but you could probably do a list of the totems/idols which give 2 spell catagories and no disadvantage, such as Fire-Bringer for sorcery).

Also, you need to work in a mechanism for buying up the magic later, or forbiding of such.

[Sphynx]

[Lilt]

Ah. Interesting rules for magic, I've yet to test them fully but they look like they would bring points-based magical characters closer to priority-based magical characters (which can be worth up-to 145 points by the standard system).

I'm not sure about buying-up the magic attribute; what happens if someone buys 4 points then buys 2 points of cyber? Is the magic attribute reduced to 2 or does it stay at 4?

Also:
Adept abilities; can any magical character have them?
Characters allowed to summon shamanic and hermetic spirits? Yowch!

Anyway; I'm done nitpicking... It looks like a good system with lots of options.

[Buzzed]

[TinkerGnome]

[Sphynx]

[schnee]

Glad you're keeping this up. It was a very, very brave and worthwhile thing he did to try to make a balanced build system for magic that made sense, and I saw it evolve quite a bit on the last forums.

Minor hijack - Infinity Cubed ('ne Funkenstein) used to be a fixture on the boards. Then he disappeared. Did he just tire of things, or did I miss something? IMO he had a very harsh demeanor, but he really knew his stuff and could back it up 9/10 times.

One minor critique about the page: would you consider pumping up the brightness on the text a bit? It's a bit hard to read. You also might want to consider a sans-serif font like Verdana or Arial... HCI (Human Computer Interaction) studies show that Sans are much more readable on low-resolution media like a screen.

Also, I've found that bumping up the line-height slightly on text makes things more legible... try this style sheet attribute:

line-height: 1.3em;

Actually, try 1.3em - 1.5em... it varies on the typeface, and ones with large x-heights tend to look better with larger leading.

[Lilt]

A few disjoint points:

For starting as a member of an active magical group; 3 of your magical points should be spent to be a member of a magical group at the start of the game. If you initiated as part of a group that no-longer exists (or that you were rejected from) this would not be an issue.

Personally I'd prefer it if you had to buy the full 6 points of magic as all of the standard characters do.

Another separate idea is to allow magic to be bought up-to your essence rating (for the case of shape-shifter characters).

On the point of being able to summon both nature spirits and elementals: I have contemplated this in the past but you'd either need to be a hermetic (who somehow understands how his formulae link to spiritual domains, maybe needing another library?) or a shaman following a totem totem that is OK with summoning hermetic spirits. The way I could see that happening is buying the 2(*2=4) point version allowing you to summon the most relevant type of elemental to your totem (eagle = air ETC).

Do bear-in-mind that being able to summon both spirits and elementals is fairly powerful. A character could go in with 3-4 high force elementals up their sleeve, summoning spirits inside the building to conceal, confuse opponents ETC before loosing a high force elemental (the drain from which made the caster's ears bleed, but that was months ago) to take-down anything in his way.

Lastly: spirits and elementals are probably the biggest difference between shamans and mages. The only other real difference is the cost so I'd suggest that any shaman wishing to summon elementals would need to pay a fair bit of :nuyen: for it. Firstly: they'd need to use hermetic methods (possibly substituting the circle for a lodge, but still needing a Conjuring library and conjuring materials) to do so. Even then shamans are a lot cheaper as they don't need a sorcery library (or an enchanting one for that matter).

[schnee]

I'd have a hard time believing a mage could summon both unless their totem was some god of knowledge and science like Thoth or Mercury; I think most totems would be completely incompatible with the hermetic mindset... really, a shaman is a friend, an associate that asks and entreats; a hermetic is a slave driver, a controller that uses legalistic methods to dominate.

I'd imagine finding a 'middle ground' that works for both mechanics would mean significant changes to the flavor text and methods of summoning... if he treats spirits with respect and dignity, why would an uncontrolled fire elemental want to burn him to a crisp? Wouldn't he be nicer to them, too? Oh wait, a balance issue just reared it's ugly head... if elementals don't become violent when uncontrolled, this buffs his hermetic side significantly... how do you balance that with in-game mechanics without unintended consequences?

A tough nut to crack.

[Sphynx]

Actually, the Totem chooses the Mage, the Hermetic doesn't. Who's to say that a person didn't master Studied (Hermetic) Magic before being chosen... or a higher possibility, continued to study magic in school despite being chosen by a Totem? I see no reason why a Shaman couldn't have also learned to perform Hermetic type of Magic.

@Lilt: Added a 3 point Initiatory Group to the list, but since a BP is roughly about 5 karma, I think maybe we should reconsider that cost.

Sphynx

[Fortune]

[Lilt]

I didn't mean for the 3 points to join a group to be build points. I meant for them to be magic points (the sort that you get for 5/build point).

On the topic of characters who can summon different types of spirits: Wasn't it that the totem does not choose the mage; the totem is supposedly crutch to help the mage with his magical ability? (see the various dragons books) I suppose it could be a combination of the two actually.

On the topic of dragons; It is possible for dragons to summon most types of spirit so it does not seem 100% impossible that some form of technique could be used by metahumans, especially if they have been trained by dragons. Just don't try an argument like "But great dragons can do it so why can't I?".

[Glyph]

The problem with a system that lets awakened characters spend extra points to go beyond their normal limitations (full mage who also has adept abilities, or an elven shaman who can also summon fire elementals), is that it becomes broken at higher build point allocations - so GMs need to keep that in mind.

In other words, if it is a 120 build point game, I might play a normal hermetic mage, but in a 135 point game, I would be tempted to add five Power Points worth of adept powers and also be able to summon city spirits.

Also, remember that adepts get Power Points for initiation - so what do you do for characters who pick adept abilities and other magical abilities? Do you give them a metamagical technique and a Power Point, or make them choose one or the other ("pure" adepts generally get both)? Also, nearly any adept will buy Astral Perception with build points, rather than spending 2 points on the power.

If you implement this, there will be more variety in awakened types, but they will also be much, much more "blended". In other words, the rat shaman is likely to get 2 points of adept abilities so he can have improved stealth: 6 and traceless walk; the phoenix shaman will add fire elementals to her spirits; the mage hunting adept will have sorcery for spell defense; and so on. If you see the distinctions between shamans, mages, and adepts as being little more than arbitrary definitions to a process that is really unique to each individual, then that won't be a problem. But I can tell you that if you implement this, you can say goodbye to most of the "standard" awakened characters.

[Herald of Verjig...]

If it's ever broken it's always broken, not because of more build points. For the 5 build points you choose to put into more magical potential, the gun-bunny can spend to become highly skilled in another area, or the rigger can master another vehicle type.

As for it breaking the barcriers between magical types. There are no barriers between mundane types except those they set for themselves. Why should magic be different. Nothing says that a rigger can't serve as face, decker, or street sam, but there is some distinction between shamans and mages that they cannot expand their views to include aspects of the other's abilities.

[Sphynx]

@Glyph: Valid point. You think we should cap the expenditure to 30 points? Or perhaps 25% of your starting BP allowing for 30 at 120BP and 33 for 135BP? I personally think no cap is needed, but I can see how it could be abused.

As for saying goodbye to the normal standard, that's honestly quite fine by me. I prefer diversity, one of the reasons SR is my favorite game, and your examples are why.


@Everyone - Unresolved thoughts:
Should we remove the MetaTechnique flaw?
- - (I can easily go either way on that)
Cause a loss of Magic for taking Cyberware?
- - (I think it shouldn't, could explain why you only bought 4 levels of Magic actually)
Do others agree with Lilt that you shouldn't be able to summon spirits cross-tradition, or it should cost more BPs?
- - (I obviously don't agree, but I prefer this be group decided.)

Sphynx

[Glyph]

I wouldn't agree that "if it's broken, it's always broken". Higher build point allocations change the value of the points - at the higher end, you are spending on frills, not essentials. At 120 build points, spending 40 build points to be a super-mage is a sacrifice. You are cutting to the bone. At 135 points, it is much easier. You are just trimming the fat.

Not that you have to nix these rules at 135 points - you just need to give the mundanes something they can spend the extra points on - let them spend more than 30 points on resources, or have an SOTA option that lets them spend build points to have access to higher Availability gear.

[Herald of Verjig...]

Cash and cyber aren't the only ways to get more potent with more BP. 10 build points can make a mundane character world class in another type of skill, or give them more useful mental attributes. If you reach the point where a character has no purpose to run once all the BP were used up, then you designed the wrong character for that campaign.

[Buzzed]

[I am Jin]

I don't see why cyber shouldn't lower your magic attribute...

As far as I see it, the question is:

I buy magic attribute 4. I get 2 points of cyber, so my essence drops from 6 to 4. My magic rating is still lower than or equal to my essence, but when I lost my essence, did I also lose my magic? i.e. is my magic attribute now 2, or is it 4?

@Sphynx: out of curiousity, since this strikes me as being the focal point of the problem, does buying a magic attribute below 6 mean that the character had an attribute of 6 and then lost it from magic loss? Or does it mean that the character is just some kind of weirdo on the astral so he isn't as in touch with magic as other awakened characters? Or is he not a weirdo because in 2060 there are plenty of people with magic less than 6, and that just like any other attribute, a 1 is low, 2 is slightly low, 3 is average, 4 is pretty good, 6 is incredible? How do you play that in your game?