[X] My Assistant

[Aku]

So, i'm working on a Face character, who i was original developing as sort of a Michael Westin mold, but after all the death he saw, he took an oath to "only" kill in self defense (pacifist level 1), then, i had the idea planted in my head (stares at Hermit) to make him a drone rigger/face. so I thought about the idea, completely ignoring the whole pacifist bit. If i'm outside the building, doing physical overwatch, with drones in the building i'm not REALLY responsible for any deaths that may occur so i'm not breaking my pacifist quality, right? is this like slice, not individually wrapped american cheese? or some good stuff, like freshly grated Parmesan Regiano ?

[DMiller]

Total cheese, not even the good stuff. If you are in control of the drones jumped in, remote or simply ordered, you are responsible for their actions. If your drone kills someone, you've broken your Pacifism.

Just my 2 NuYen.

[Teulisch]

if its your drone, and you armed it with lethal force, its as good as if you killed him in the meat from an ethical standpoint. your cheese is called denial. a smart GM will give you bad consequences if you try to avoid negative qualities with faulty logic.

[Udoshi]

I think that the Code of Honor from RC is more appropriate to this 'minimum force required' approach, than trying to use pacifism for something it isn't intended.

I also think that any sane GM will have you violate your pacifism every time you tell your drone to kill someone. Your toys are your responsibility.

[Fikealox]

So you guys are saying that if I let a tiger loose in a day-care centre I'll be morally responsible for the grisly deaths? Fascists!

[Yerameyahu]

There are so many 'better' NQs, anyway.

[Aku]

Come on, no one wants to step up and argue against me? For the record, i agree it's not very good cheese, but i'd like to see someone try to argue it.

[Yerameyahu]

Didn't they? It's not pacifism if you cause it. It looks like… everyone said that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Critias]

So just give your drones gel rounds (or some other non-lethal/less-than-lethal weapon). Ta da.

[LurkerOutThere]

I don't often argue against flat earthers either. There's not much to argue when one side is wrong.

[TheOOB]

Using drones to get around pacifism is like using a gun to get around it, in either case it was a machine that did the physical act, but you intentionally used to machine for the purposes of violence.

[phlapjack77]

Strange - Not that I'm trying to argue your point Aku, but I JUST had a discussion with a co-worker about the "level of abstraction" of killing someone - how disconnected from your target are you when you kill them? Knifing someone is so immediate, shooting someone is a little more removed...then up to fighter pilots having reported not feeling like their bombings are very "real killings" and so on...it makes a sort of (morbid) sense that the more removed from your target, the less real it would seem and the easier it becomes...

Using TheOOB's example, it's YOU pulling the trigger on the gun, likely you can see your target, see the effects of the bullet hitting them. Very real, visceral. Telling a drone to shoot people? Maybe more possible for a pacifist...

[Glyph]

A pacifist character will actively avoid violence and only kill in self-defense. The quality as written is specifically a matter of principle, not level of abstraction. Letting a pacifist get away with any kind of remote-controlled murder opens the floodgates for "pacifist" demolitions experts, spirit summoners, riggers, and indirect fire snipers.

Isn't there already enough wiggle room for munchkins? "Well, those guards are firing at me and my teammates - I guess they consider blowing up the front gate and storming in with assault rifles to be some kind of hostile act on our part - so since they're firing at me, I'm justified in, um, defending myself!"

[Dahrken]

Cheese it is indeed, and IMHO of the worst, artificially colored and flavored pase-in-a-tube kind... I guess nobody argues for it because it is unarguable.

The quality say "avoids needless violence and will not kill unless in self-defense". If you take that negative quality that's not the level of personnal implication in the violence you oppose, it's the violence itself.
Think about it : the desription of the 5 BP version explicitely states that you cannot participate in premeditated murder or wetwork - simply involving yourself is enough to break the negative quality.

In fact a pacifist is likely to use drones (with non-lethal hardware) to avoid being in a self-defense situation where he would need to possibly kill another metahuman, but definitively not to kill by proxy so he does not feel bat about it.

[suoq]

i'm not REALLY responsible for any deaths that may occur

And when you toss someone off a building, they were perfectly fine when you let go of them. In no way were you responsible for the damage that the pavement did to them.

It's not even cheese. It's more like you read the name but not the actual description.

[Summerstorm]

Eh... what the others said.

I mean: Technically you already violate your pacifism when you order/program a drone to "Attack anyone not carrying an legitimate ID chip in this area". Sure it is GUARD duty in your place. But still, anyone breaking and entering might die because of you. Instant gm-hammer *g*

[Aerospider]

This approach to circumnavigating the pacifist quality is, as so many have already put, completely ineffective. If you want a character who can't handle pulling the trigger himself but is quite happy for others to do it for him then just play it that way - it's not worth any bonus BPs. Ultimately, as the book specifies, a negative quality has to be a detrimental one.

Here are some other options:

Combine with the delusion quality. Your character could believe that all megacorp employees (say) are some kind of mind-controlled puppets or machines that don't have families, friends, hopes or feelings. Though you should be in for a world of psychiatric hurt if and when the delusion is unravelled.

Take the multiple personality disorder quality and make just one of yourself a pacifist. It makes for a complicated character, but perhaps an interesting one.

Be an AI or a free spirit then convince your GM that you don't care about biological life. This option is a bit out there, but it might be fun to play a hacker who won't crash, attack, corrupt or in any other way defile anything with a Pilot rating, be it drone or IC. Sprites should probably be off-limits too.

[pbangarth]

I have a Free Spirit PC, Bryneir, who was once a Valkyrie, but for some reason (Amnesia 1 - the GM has cooked up something 'special' for her) she has rejected some of the violence inherent in her past (Pacifist 1). She has combat spells, but all do Stun damage only. She recently saved from drowning an enemy who had tried to kill her and her team. This enemy has now turned into an arch-rival bent on the destruction of her team. She encourages her teammates to use SnS ammunition (not a bad idea anyway) and Unarmed Combat if fighting is necessary.

The only entity whom she is possibly seeking to destroy is another Free Spirit, who runs a whorehouse in Las Vegas, using mentally dominated metahumans as her stable of employees. A recent run-in between the two has left Bryneir disgusted with the depraved use of these innocents against their will, and she is collecting the resources to bring about the permanent Banishment of the 'Madam'. Otherwise, she will have to go to the Madam's home plane and take her down there. One way or another the depraved domination must stop.

I believe there is no evasion of the Pacifist 1 Quality in this.

[DamienKnight]

This would be the equivalent of a Michael Westin who decides to leave deadly traps for all the criminals he faces. Sure, sometimes he puts the bad guys in a compromising situation and their bosses kill them, but he is not going to put a cyanide gasbomb in their car, or a brain frying tazer in their phone. He may not be present when the traps murder people, but he would still feel responsible.

Remember, the point behind pasifism is that your character doesnt want to kill other people. Its not a phobia of seeing death, its a real passion for life that wont let them murder with a knife, gun, remote detonated bomb or trap, or even a drone they are not currently rigging.

That passion for life is what makes this an interesting quality. They wont just run with a shadowrun team and look the other way when murder happens... they will buy Gel and Stick and shock rounds and distribute them to other team members before the job. They will turn down flat out wetwork. They will be the one who speaks up when interrogations start to go too far. They play the good guy that gets on the heartless mercenaries nerves... but is too useful to ignore.

[pbangarth]

That passion for life is what makes this an interesting quality. They wont just run with a shadowrun team and look the other way when murder happens... they will buy Gel and Stick and shock rounds and distribute them to other team members before the job. They will turn down flat out wetwork. They will be the one who speaks up when interrogations start to go too far. They play the good guy that gets on the heartless mercenaries nerves... but is too useful to ignore.

Yes, this is very much the case. Well put.

[Aku]

Just for the record, this was a late night semi coherent idea. I wasnt planning on actually using this as cheese I wanted to see if anyone would actually make the argument for it working though, but as i had suspected, there really IS no argument :\ that was a boring discussion DS!

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Just for the record, this was a late night semi coherent idea. I wasnt planning on actually using this as cheese I wanted to see if anyone would actually make the argument for it working though, but as i had suspected, there really IS no argument :\ that was a boring discussion DS!

Not so much. Fikealox gave me the idea of putting a trid show similar to "Fast Animals, Slow Children" in the 6th World.

So you guys are saying that if I let a tiger loose in a day-care centre I'll be morally responsible for the grisly deaths? Fascists!

[suoq]

Ultimately, as the book specifies, a negative quality has to be a detrimental one.

Alas, that isn't quite true. A number of the qualities aren't detrimental.

Sensitive system is 15 free points for a character who was going to be minimally cybered anyway (< .5). Likewise Hung out to Dry is 10 free points if you're not starting out with any contacts. If you don't have the BPs or the character concept suggests passing on a group of items, there may well be a quality that pays you for what you were going to do anyway.

10 points of Amnesia can actually be downright fun to play.

Records on File. Distinctive Style, etc. has (so far in my experience anyway) been free points for anyone playing Missions. Someone let me know if they ever add a trace roll to a Missions mod.

[Mr. Smileys]

Take the multiple personality disorder quality and make just one of yourself a pacifist. It makes for a complicated character, but perhaps an interesting one.

This is an Idea I was mulling about in the back of my head. The only twist to it I had was that the other personality would have the Combat Monster NQ and be the crazed kill-em-all type. Kind of a Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde kind of deal with a specific key that would cause the switch, like intense fear and pain (i.e. being shot).

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Alas, that isn't quite true. A number of the qualities aren't detrimental.

Sensitive system is 15 free points for a character who was going to be minimally cybered anyway (< .5). Likewise Hung out to Dry is 10 free points if you're not starting out with any contacts. If you don't have the BPs or the character concept suggests passing on a group of items, there may well be a quality that pays you for what you were going to do anyway.

10 points of Amnesia can actually be downright fun to play.

Records on File. Distinctive Style, etc. has (so far in my experience anyway) been free points for anyone playing Missions. Someone let me know if they ever add a trace roll to a Missions mod.

If the GM is allowing a character with a negative quality that is in no way detrimental to the character the GM ain't doing its job right.