[X] My Assistant

[Rubic]

Note that the character with the sensitive system (that's what this discussion is about after all) isn't likely to be buying more ware.
Neither is the awakened character at the edge of losing more magic.
Neither is the character already out of essence.

The third one, the character "already out of essence" is actually likely to buy new ware to upgrade what he has already. Does he have a standard cybertorso? Well, he could get a custom chassis built with a higher inherent body rating, maybe troll-grade, so that he can later purchase similarly better cyberlimbs and perform above and beyond. Maybe he still has some capacity, or can afford a little more essence for a limb with more capacity so he can install a nano-hive, and thus can afford nanites to increase performance.

There are numerous little upgrades you can make to ware after chargen, including upgrading to deltaware (unless you're type-O) and using the spare essence holes for other wares.

[ElFenrir]

I will say, I never found Sensitive System on Adepts very cheesy-especially since the most optimal adepts DO take 1-2 points of 'ware that I've seen built. On a Mage or Technomancer, maaaybe, though a mage with some ware can be rather frighteningly effective(I know this from experience-we had one in our games, and I've played one.)

But I'm in the boat of yes-there are things I've not liked in my games(before it was actually ruled, I ruled that you could not get more than +3 DV from MA Qualities-I mean, I love martial arts characters but even I found people stacking +7-8 DV appallingly cheesy), but indeed, I don't name-call, or accuse of munchkining. (My PoV of a Munchkin is different than others it seems-I always thought Munchkins were people out to blatantly cheat and hurt the game for their own amusement-not someone who wanted a few extra BP.)

That, and our table is very fast and loose. In fact, we sort of have a little fun 'rule'-if you're trying to get extra BP and you take one of the 'lighter' flaws-don't try to lie about it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) We'll know. Just be honest ''yeah, I took Sinner-I needed the points-just so you know' ''Alrighty, I'll figure a way to fit this in.'' Other tables are stricter and want a super-strict explanation of every single NQ a character has, and if it doesn't pass a highly strict test, it's out. Hey, that's fine too-not the type of game I like to play in but if someone else's table has fun that way, no problem.

I CAN understand some of the issues with some of the qualities. Like Sensitive System's seemingly no middle ground; you're a douche if you force cyber on a character, or you let them have free points. Though I look at things some other ways.

If a non-magical, non Techno non Cyber character takes this, they are *already* at a huge disadvantage in this game. The points aren't going to do much to offset this. IMO they deserve it.(and yes, I know this may not be a very popular outlook.)

If a magical or techno takes it, while I can't speak for technos, as I said above, these characters can still benefit very highly from 1-2 points of 'ware, and thus, IMO, it's an impact. It prevents full optimization of an adept, I know that much(unless I missed something in one of the later sourcebooks which now transforms fully natural Adepts into better ones.)

Oh, as for Availability at Chargen? Ditched in full at my table, with a ''Take what you want, don't be a numpty'' rule. If you want something that fits your character and can afford it, take it. If you want something that might not fit, try to come up with a good story for it and we'll take it from there.

I'm a HUGE believer in the phrase ''Don't tell someone no. Tell them it might be rough, tell them they might need to work at it, tell them it might need some compromise, but give them a chance'' at my table, so I'd have to say very, very little actually gets nailed. (If I DO nail something, it's for a very, very good reason.)

[suoq]

The third one, the character "already out of essence" is actually likely to buy new ware to upgrade what he has already.

Unless I"m missing the math, the sensitive system dude with ware can do that as well. I'm not seeing the difference. Help me understand why having ware with a sensitive system is more of a disadvantage than not having ware with a sensitive system. I'm admittedly slow and may need an example or two.

[Sengir]

But a character who wouldn't really want 'ware anyways, I'd call it cheesy.

Would you also call it cheesy if a character who doesn't want to kill people takes Pacifist?

If a player choses to restrict his character (and foregoing cyber sure is a restriction), I don't see why he should be penalized because this restriction fits with how the character will be played.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Note that the character with the sensitive system (that's what this discussion is about after all) isn't likely to be buying more ware.
Neither is the awakened character at the edge of losing more magic.
Neither is the character already out of essence.

The only characters likely to buy ware are the characters whose creators either:
1) planned to have them buy ware during the game at character creation.
2) learned something that has encouraged them to make new choices for the character.

I don't know what's on your shopping lists, but ware is very rarely, if ever on mine. I'm curious as to what ware other people have bought over their careers since it seems to be a surprise to people that my characters tend not to. What ware have people bought for your characters POST char creation and why didn't they start with it?

Suprathyroid gland as the first thing. Ultrasound hearing, echolocation and speech modification to reach ultrasound (forget its name), also I saved a lot of money to buy me a thunderstruck gauss rifle that I dubbed 'Trollslayer' and several highly illegal gas grenades.

A friend of mine also bought suprathyroid gland post character creation, dermal plate rating 3, muscle toner 4, etc. etc.

Now, why didn't we start with restricted gear?
Because we had other stuff we wanted to buy with our 35 points in Positive qualities.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Note that the character with the sensitive system (that's what this discussion is about after all) isn't likely to be buying more ware.
Neither is the awakened character at the edge of losing more magic.
Neither is the character already out of essence.

The only characters likely to buy ware are the characters whose creators either:
1) planned to have them buy ware during the game at character creation.
2) learned something that has encouraged them to make new choices for the character.

I don't know what's on your shopping lists, but ware is very rarely, if ever on mine. I'm curious as to what ware other people have bought over their careers since it seems to be a surprise to people that my characters tend not to. What ware have people bought for your characters POST char creation and why didn't they start with it?

Over the course of the campaign, I have advanced all the Cyberware I started with (At Alpha) through Beta and to Delta Grade. I only have a single Piece of Cyberware at Standard Grade, and that was because I had only recently bought it, and only had the resources for Standard Grade. It will be upgraded eventually through to Delta. My Bioware is about 90% Alpha Grade, with a Few pieces at Standard, and a Few at Delta. All my Bioware started at Standard Grade.

Of course, the Character is a cyberlogician, so much of his cyberware is Communications, Sensor, and Headware based, with a few pieces of body ware (primarily centered around a MBW II system, or Sensors that are not Headware). He has 4 Delta Grade Datajacks, a heavily encrypted Datalock, and 4 SOTA Internal Comlinks as his primary headware. Most of that came after character generation (Started with 2 Datajacks and the Datalock, and 1 Internal Comlink).

Yes, I know, a lot of redundancy in there, but that was intentional.

[Rubic]

Unless I"m missing the math, the sensitive system dude with ware can do that as well. I'm not seeing the difference. Help me understand why having ware with a sensitive system is more of a disadvantage than not having ware with a sensitive system. I'm admittedly slow and may need an example or two.

Sensitive System doubles the essence cost of any cyberware. Bioware is still available at normal essence cost. It basically makes cyberware a non-optimized choice for character improvement.

Edit: you can think of it as the opposite of "Type O System" from Augmentation. Type O means all standard ware is treated as deltaware for you. Sensitive System means that all cyberware is rejected to some degree by your system.

[squee_nabob]

Would you also call it cheesy if a character who doesn't want to kill people takes Pacifist?

If a player choses to restrict his character (and foregoing cyber sure is a restriction), I don't see why he should be penalized because this restriction fits with how the character will be played.

The difference is that Pacifist prevents you from going on some runs. In a home campaign that's not a problem (the GM can either ask you to sit out, or not throw those runs), in SRM, it means you have the 5 point disad to not play in some missions.

[Yerameyahu]

To muddy the waters, bioware is already superior to cyber in most ways. While forgoing *all* 'ware would be a moderate problem for Awakened, skipping just cyber is much less so.

[Ascalaphus]

Unless I'm missing something, that would be ware that's beta or better or ware with an availability > 20.

I'll be honest. I'm not that nice of a guy. Such an opportunity would be (in other genre's terms) more like going on a quest. Getting possession of the ware and a place that can insert it is likely to require taking everyone else down the rabbit hole with you. But that's me. I'm not that nice.

Does it happen frequently in your campaign?

I'm not a fan of Restricted Gear. I want there to be plenty of things you can still yearn for that aren't available from the beginning.

Would you also call it cheesy if a character who doesn't want to kill people takes Pacifist?

If a player choses to restrict his character (and foregoing cyber sure is a restriction), I don't see why he should be penalized because this restriction fits with how the character will be played.

Hmm, makes me wonder about Pacifism yeah. But I think if you play a character who wasn't going to take cyber anyway, then sensitive system wouldn't be a real disadvantage, and a bit dubious to get points for it.

[Yerameyahu]

Which is why you give reduced points. It's a whopping 15, so plenty of room to charge 5 or 10.

Personally, I don't think 'limiting' yourself to bioware is worth 15 under any circumstances, but it's worth *something*, sure.

[suoq]

I'm amused by the thought that sensitive system may be considered cheesy in the same campaign where deltaware is obtainable.

I'm so glad I get to play. People would hate me as a GM.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm amused by the thought that sensitive system may be considered cheesy in the same campaign where deltaware is obtainable.

I'm so glad I get to play. People would hate me as a GM.

If you are referring to me, Suoq, I do not consider Sensitive System to be Cheesy. *shrug*
Of course, It is not one of the normal Negative Qualities that I take either...

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I'm amused by the thought that sensitive system may be considered cheesy in the same campaign where deltaware is obtainable.

I'm so glad I get to play. People would hate me as a GM.

Why wouldn't deltaware be obtainable? I'm mean, sure, it may take some while but saying it is downright impossible seems a little exxagerating, doesn't it?

[MikeKozar]

Why wouldn't deltaware be obtainable? I'm mean, sure, it may take some while but saying it is downright impossible seems a little exxagerating, doesn't it?

Deltaware makes a lot of sense if you start to think Corp. One of my last runs had some Executive Protection that looked a lot like a sweet little Personal Assistant, but had 2.3 million nuyen in low-profile cyberware taking her down to 0.3 essence. If you think about the mindset of CEOs and other rich bastards, a bodyguard to secure corp assets (i.e., themselves) is worth the investment. What Deltaware does for the game system is make a whole other tier of gear that PCs should not have access to, but the opposition will. Eventually, do some favors, get in good with a corp, and you might get some...but they will *start* with it.

[suoq]

Why wouldn't deltaware be obtainable? I'm mean, sure, it may take some while but saying it is downright impossible seems a little exxagerating, doesn't it?

1) It's the justposition of s.s. being cheesy and deltaware being obtainable that appeals to me.

2) From a personql standpoint, understanding that I don't claim to have the right way, last I heard there were something like 6 delta clinics in the world. That makes them more exclusive than the best clubs, the best secret societies. A runner would not only need the money, he'd need the sponsors, the people whose word opens the socially closed door.

Yes, even in the game of chess, a pawn, if he advances far enough can become a queen. But the pawn has to get there and the king has to give permission, and even then it may all be a sacrifice just to force an opponent out of position.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Deltaware makes a lot of sense if you start to think Corp. One of my last runs had some Executive Protection that looked a lot like a sweet little Personal Assistant, but had 2.3 million nuyen in low-profile cyberware taking her down to 0.3 essence. If you think about the mindset of CEOs and other rich bastards, a bodyguard to secure corp assets (i.e., themselves) is worth the investment. What Deltaware does for the game system is make a whole other tier of gear that PCs should not have access to, but the opposition will. Eventually, do some favors, get in good with a corp, and you might get some...but they will *start* with it.

Indeed... It took 2 years of actual gameplay, 300+ Karma, and a signifcant bit of Money and Favors to obtain the Delta Grade 'Ware the character now has. But it was fun getting there... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

1) It's the justposition of s.s. being cheesy and deltaware being obtainable that appeals to me.

2) From a personql standpoint, understanding that I don't claim to have the right way, last I heard there were something like 6 delta clinics in the world. That makes them more exclusive than the best clubs, the best secret societies. A runner would not only need the money, he'd need the sponsors, the people whose word opens the socially closed door.

Yes, even in the game of chess, a pawn, if he advances far enough can become a queen. But the pawn has to get there and the king has to give permission, and even then it may all be a sacrifice just to force an opponent out of position.

There are at least a Dozen Delta Grade Clinics that can perform Cybermancy.
There are likely a few more that cannot.

[Yerameyahu]

Still, incredibly rare. It *should* take RL years (if you have a group that does long games).

[Rubic]

And you'll still want at least 3 people you KNOW you can trust to watch out for you while the surgery takes place.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Found the quote:

Deltaware is still very
much the province of closed corporate facilities and black clinics.
I’d say there’s no more than six or seven of them in North America,
and only a couple of those are indy operations.

Now, the availability of a delta clinic is 24/1 week. Which means that a guy with a 12+ dicepool of Charisma + Negotiation can find one eventually.

[Mäx]

Found the quote:

So thats 6-7 delta clinics in North America alone, couple of witch are indy operations.
So not that rare really.

[Yerameyahu]

I guess if your definition of 'not rare' means 'maybe a dozen or so on the planet'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There are about 12000 Starbuckses and McDonaldses (each) in the US, 600-some Five Guyses, 35 IKEAs… And they let people in off the street. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Compared to a couple non-closed delta clinics in North America.

[KarmaInferno]

Note that every single Delta clinic is either buried so far under secrecy that you'll never find it, or being watched intently 24/7 by every megacorp on the planet.

Not exactly something your average street or even mid-range Shadowrunner is going to get access to. Or want to.

To put things into perspective, there are probably 10 times (or more) ultra top-secret corporate military facilities of varying sorts than there are Delta Clinics. And those are probably easier to get into.




-k

[Mäx]

I guess if your definition of 'not rare' means 'maybe a dozen or so on the planet'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So your saying that the rest of the planet combined has barely as many delta clinics as North America (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)