[X] My Assistant

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

So your saying that the rest of the planet combined has barely as many delta clinics as North America (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Given how Japan is the motherland of 3 triple A corps, I would Japan would have as much as the entire North America.

[Ryu]

I already replied in the other thread, but I think sensitive system is basically a character growth limiter. Any character growth limiter is inherently cheesy, because they are nearly always taken for areas the player doesn't plan to develop more than minimally, in the first place. You won't see a budding face take uncouth. You won't see the street samurai take sensitive system. You won't see the hacker take sim vertigo. You will see the troll muscle take uncouth, the bioware-enhanced adept take sensitive system, and the neo-Luddite mage take sim vertigo.

Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with having a problem with it, either. I'm only saying, don't be a dick about it. Like me with the ever-popular emotitoy ban. If I got a player with a fuzzy cat toy emotitoy, I would just say, "Sorry, but emotitoys are banned in my games." That's all. There's no call for whining, name-calling, or finger-pointing over it.

Interesting perspective. Mechanically I agree, yet in this case I have never seen the cheese.

It might be because I hold a special place in my hearth for augmented mages, but I don´t see that quality as a good buy except for those exotics that can´t realistically expect to get cyber. And what munchkin takes a mechanical disadvantage over an RP one that can be turned into an advantage or be ignored?

[Yerameyahu]

I am saying that, yes. I did say 'a dozen or so', intending something between 12 and 20. The point is that it's a very small number, and the vast majority are closed, corp.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Still, incredibly rare. It *should* take RL years (if you have a group that does long games).

Agreed, it Should take some time... I am glad that our games last years upon years. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Rubic]

Thank Dog for Type O System...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Thank Dog for Type O System...

Heh... Type O (for Bioware) and Biocompatibility for Cyberware... the only way to fly, to bad you can't actually pull that one off except through Surge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Faraday]

Makes me think about making a mundane character with BOTH type O system and sensitive system.

Granted, playing Type O PCs is always interesting, seeing as one is a big sack of juicy organs.

[toturi]

If I got a player with a fuzzy cat toy emotitoy, I would just say, "Sorry, but emotitoys are banned in my games." That's all. There's no call for whining, name-calling, or finger-pointing over it.

I would have an issue only if the player wasn't informed of emotitoys being banned in the game before the PC joined the game.

[Yerameyahu]

How could the PC join the game before being approved? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Glyph]

Well, ideally, I would state my house rules before people created their characters. But sometimes you will have someone who has a character they have already put together, or something.

Sometimes it is relatively simple to revise a character, while other times, you have to go back to the drawing board. Take astral hazing. If I make a formori ex-pit fighter with SURGE mainly to optimize his Agility, and balance it out with astral hazing, then I could swap it out with a moderate/uncommon allergy easily if that quality was banned. On the other hand, I have a character named Null that is basically built around being supernaturally creepy (nasty vibe, critter spook, astral hazing) and being highly resistant to magic (magic resistance as a SURGE quality, astral hazing). If astral hazing was banned, I would probably do a completely different character, since that quality is fairly central to the concept. So yeah, I would try to lay down my house rules before people make their characters, whenever possible.

[toturi]

How could the PC join the game before being approved? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

How can a player join a game to create his character if his character needs to be approved before he can join a game?

[Yerameyahu]

Huh? The *PC* (which is what you said) can't join the game until it (the character) is approved.

[suoq]

Well, ideally, I would state my house rules before people created their characters.

Is there a "House Rules" thread? One where people who have all these house rules that the players expect to be informed of can post their house rules for other people to crib off of?

[toturi]

Huh? The *PC* (which is what you said) can't join the game until it (the character) is approved.

But can the player join the game(OOCly) before his PC joins the game(ICly)?

Sometimes GMs do not go over the character's stats and equipment with a fine tooth comb before approving it and if the player doesn't know there are house rules, there will be the situation that an approved character has banned items.

[Ascalaphus]

What's worked very well for me is actually writing down house rules in a document, and emailing them to all the players whenever I update them.

[Irion]

There won't be a lot to go around in any case. Should not take more than one page, so I can't see the problem.

If it is nobody is wanting to play anyway, because nobody wants to learn a new set of rules for a game.

You only need:
Book allowed to build the character.
Surge yes/no.
Advanced character concepts (which?)
Banned items.
May be some mechanical changes each will probably be around 20 words.

@toturi

Sometimes GMs do not go over the character's stats and equipment with a fine tooth comb before approving it and if the player doesn't know there are house rules, there will be the situation that an approved character has banned items.

Thats why the GM is allowed to ban stuff in game, to correct misstakes.

[toturi]

@toturi

Thats why the GM is allowed to ban stuff in game, to correct misstakes.

The GM is allowed to house rule however he wants.

[Ascalaphus]

I view (house)rules as a work in progress. If an element in the game isn't working out well, such as a power or equipment that's too powerful ("everyone must have it"), or that just has clunky rules that work awkwardly then it gets changed. The house rule sheet gets updated and sent to everyone.

Changing entire mechanics is a lot trickier. I've done it with D&D and oWoD, and it takes a lot of playtesting and tweaking before a reform of something like the combat mechanics becomes balanced and efficient. But when you simplify 20 pages of clunky rules into 8 pages of streamlined and more elegant rules, that's really nice.

[suoq]

There won't be a lot to go around in any case. Should not take more than one page, so I can't see the problem.

Missions house rules are 8 pages or so.

My notes so far contain a paragraph each for contacts, commlinks, software, dice pools, equipment, rule books, and licenses/SINs. I haven't even gotten into details like emotitoys, glamor, etc. I really despise what they're becoming of necessity, either because of personal tweaks (contacts in no way reflects the skill of the contact), ill-defined rules (commlink response degradation and it's complete lack of effect), rules that throw the whole rest of the system out of balance and/or cause unnecessary paperwork and solo time with a single player (piracy), equipment that bypasses availability restrictions (HK=227X and Morrissey Élan), rule books that I currently have no intention of buying that my players may own, etc. etc.

I suspect if people wrote down which optional rules they used (dice caps), which rules they universally ignored (training of skills), etc., they would find it much more than a single page worth of house rules.

[Elfenlied]

Well, I used to have a DM who seriously considered white-listing every piece of equipment allowed in his campaign. Note that this was in one of the older editions, where every gun still had its own page and artwork.

The threat of administering physical violence to him made him see the light. There's a fine line between "house rules to enhance the gaming experience of everyone involved" and "control freak", and white-listing equipment is clearly the latter for me.

[Irion]

The threat of administering physical violence to him made him see the light. There's a fine line between "house rules to enhance the gaming experience of everyone involved" and "control freak", and white-listing equipment is clearly the latter for me.

It is just over complicated.

To a certain amount every group has its own "white" list. Consisting of the books and rules they do apply.
Looks like that(for example):
Core book/all
Augmentation/all
Streetmagic/all
Runners Companion/only lifestyle and normal additional Flaws and merits.
etc.
It is a base line you have to establish anyway. The more there are "bad" parts introduced in good books, the more you have to make it more precise.
(So if you want some rules from war! it really might be easyer to write a white list than a black one...)

[Hida Tsuzua]

There's also stuff that isn't rules per se but are widely different group to group. Stuff like how hard is it to cover one's identity, the average matrix security layout, how fast and how easy is it to avoid cops, and what is and is not socially accepted (does SWAT get called for a SMG?). Thankfully players usually adopt fast so you don't need the huge document that it would take to write all these little things out.

[Yerameyahu]

But can the player join the game(OOCly) before his PC joins the game(ICly)?

Yes. Obviously. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If the GM approves something without reading it, bad GM.

[ElFenrir]

equipment that bypasses availability restrictions (HK=227X and Morrissey Élan),

Can I ask how these two guns bypass the Availability limit?

The HK227X has: 28c, SA/BF/FA, Smartlink, Sound Supressor and retractable stock(1 RC). It's 5P, no AP.

The Ingram Smartgun has 32c, BF/FA, Smartlink, Sound Supressor, Gast Vent 2 and a Folding Stock(max 3RC). It's 5P, no AP, and 150 nuyen less than the HK. It's also 6R instead of 8R.

Unless I'm reading something wrong, I cannot see in any way how an HK227X bypasses Availability restrictions, unless having an SA function on your SMG is incredibly powerful, which in my experience, doesn't really break anything.

The Élan is equivalent nearly to the Scout hold-out-same damage, both SA, the Scout has 2 more bullet capacity. The Elan cannot fire fletchette rounds; it's big thing is the fact it's undetectable by MADs(like the fully legal Bone Density Augmentation and other legal bioware.) Now, I can understand why it's heavy-pistol counterpart the Infiltrator is tougher to get(it's basically a non-MAD detectable Ares Predator 4, complete with 15c and -1AP with heavy pistol ranges, AND the ability to break it down, where the Élan lacks this, and HPs are *considerably* more powerful than a little holdout.)

I'm not being snarky, by the way-I'm genuinely curious. I figure that the Availability limits are put on weapons for a reason. I mean, an Ingram White Knight LMG is only Availability 12, while the Remington 990 shotgun(and a rather excellent gun) is a mere 4.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Can I ask how these two guns bypass the Availability limit?

The HK227X has: 28c, SA/BF/FA, Smartlink, Sound Supressor and retractable stock(1 RC). It's 5P, no AP.

The Ingram Smartgun has 32c, BF/FA, Smartlink, Sound Supressor, Gast Vent 2 and a Folding Stock(max 3RC). It's 5P, no AP, and 150 nuyen less than the HK. It's also 6R instead of 8R.

Unless I'm reading something wrong, I cannot see in any way how an HK227X bypasses Availability restrictions, unless having an SA function on your SMG is incredibly powerful, which in my experience, doesn't really break anything.

The Élan is equivalent nearly to the Scout hold-out-same damage, both SA, the Scout has 2 more bullet capacity. The Elan cannot fire fletchette rounds; it's big thing is the fact it's undetectable by MADs(like the fully legal Bone Density Augmentation and other legal bioware.) Now, I can understand why it's heavy-pistol counterpart the Infiltrator is tougher to get(it's basically a non-MAD detectable Ares Predator 4, complete with 15c and -1AP with heavy pistol ranges, AND the ability to break it down, where the Élan lacks this, and HPs are *considerably* more powerful than a little holdout.)

I'm not being snarky, by the way-I'm genuinely curious. I figure that the Availability limits are put on weapons for a reason. I mean, an Ingram White Knight LMG is only Availability 12, while the Remington 990 shotgun(and a rather excellent gun) is a mere 4.

The Ingran and the HK227 both have integral SOund Suppressors, which should change the availability to Forbidden, rather than Restricted.
The Elan is Ceramic Yes? That is also Forbidden Tech, except in the Elan's case, in which case it is Restricted.