Two Rules With Questionable Interpretations Options

[longbowrocks]

My first question has to do with edge. One of the possible uses of edge is to "re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit." I interpret this as rerolling ALL dice on a single test, provided that not a single die on that test scored a hit. That is the literal reading, and thus RAW, since the subject associated with "did not score a hit" is "a single test". I heard someone a while ago interpret this as "on a single test, reroll any dice that did not score a hit". Essentially an inversion of the Great Dragon power: twist fate.
This interpretation rings true to me, both because it is similar to the great dragon power, and because my interpretation would be ridiculous. Opinions?

My second question is as follows. I've heard it said around the boards that full auto bursts can affect hardened armor, or more specifically, vehicles. Is this true? The only rule I can find that even begins to resemble this is the vehicle damage rule on page 171: full bursts can attack both vehicles and passengers in one shot.

[Yerameyahu]

The Edge issue has been, I daresay, resolved. It means you reroll the non-hit dice. (The grammar is all equally valid, so you can't go by that.) Personally, I think this is a relatively powerful option that could be house-ruled to be different (usually better than all others), but there's no other adequate interpretation of the *existing* rule.

Full auto bursts can affect anything. Full auto extra damage simply *doesn't* apply to beating armor (to do Physical). It hurts vehicles more, but only *if* the base damage + net hits beats the modified armor, etc.

[longbowrocks]

Full auto bursts can affect anything. Full auto extra damage simply *doesn't* apply to beating armor (to do Physical). It hurts vehicles more, but only *if* the base damage + net hits beats the modified armor, etc.

D'oh! Found it.

[Fikealox]

If memory serves, the example of play in Anatomy of a Shadowrun uses the "reroll all non-hits" interpretation of the Edge rules a number of times.

[longbowrocks]

If memory serves, the example of play in Anatomy of a Shadowrun uses the "reroll all non-hits" interpretation of the Edge rules a number of times.

I need to read those then. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)
You mean the green text examples and not some strangely named book, right?

[Garvel]

In the german version of the rulebook you can't interpret the edge rule the way you do. The german grammar doesn't leave a doubt that the single dice are meant with "did not score a hit" and not the whole test.
Theoretically that could be a translation error, but that is very unlikely in this case. Such an important error would have been found out after such a long time. The usefullness of egde stands and falls with this option.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, *one* usefulness of Edge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But regardless, the alternative interpretation is simply impossible. Tests in SR4 don't 'score hits', and the odds of a no-hit dice result that's also not a Glitch (which Edge is also used for, and you can only use Edge *once* per test) aren't great.

[Fikealox]

You mean the green text examples and not some strangely named book, right?

Actually, it's a strangely named book (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) It's a 32-page pdf from the Runner's Toolkit, which gives parallel narrative and mechanical descriptions of a shadowrun from negotiations to execution.

[Dakka Dakka]

My second question is as follows. I've heard it said around the boards that full auto bursts can affect hardened armor, or more specifically, vehicles. Is this true? The only rule I can find that even begins to resemble this is the vehicle damage rule on page 171: full bursts can attack both vehicles and passengers in one shot.

a) vehicles do not have hardened armor, they simply can ignore stun damage. Physical damage is downgraded normally just as with people, but it evaporates on vehicles.
b)By RAW it is not just full bursts but all Full-Auto Attacks. So a short burst in BF mode only affect the vehicle or the passengers whereas a short burst in FA mode affects both (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[longbowrocks]

a) vehicles do not have hardened armor, they simply can ignore stun damage. Physical damage is downgraded normally just as with people, but it evaporates on vehicles.

Ah. I forgot about that difference. So they both work the same for physical damage, but vehicles can ignore unlimited stun.

[Cain]

a) vehicles do not have hardened armor, they simply can ignore stun damage. Physical damage is downgraded normally just as with people, but it evaporates on vehicles.

Kinda. While vehicles don't take Stun damage, they can be affected by electrical attacks that deal Stun damage. So, you can mess up a vehicle with Stick-n-Shock.

[HunterHerne]

Kinda. While vehicles don't take Stun damage, they can be affected by electrical attacks that deal Stun damage. So, you can mess up a vehicle with Stick-n-Shock.

Ah, those damn Stick-n-shock. What aren't they good for?

[hobgoblin]

Good luck disabling something with 2+ digits of body and armor tho. SNS may shut down a drone for a couple of rounds (especially nasty for a flying drone), but with anything bigger your better off going with something permanent.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, it's not something you rely on, but there's a chance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Luckily, they have to equal your *net hits* on the attack… an excellent shot could very well up the odds.

[Elfenlied]

So wait, narrow bursts help beating hardened armor now?

[Yerameyahu]

No.

[hobgoblin]

So wait, narrow bursts help beating hardened armor now?

Bursts never aid in overcoming armor.

[KarmaInferno]

Wide bursts can, indirectly. Reducing or eliminating target dodge pool potentially increases weapon damage, which means the target has to get more hits on the soak test to avoid the additional damage.



-k

[hobgoblin]

At that point one can start to wonder if the attack roll should be allowed to aid damage in a wide burst, as one is basically throwing bullets everywhere in the hopes that at least one of them hits.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, it's one of those funky math artifacts.

[Elfenlied]

At that point one can start to wonder if the attack roll should be allowed to aid damage in a wide burst, as one is basically throwing bullets everywhere in the hopes that at least one of them hits.

I think wide bursts are still concentrated on a single target. What you're describing is more like suppressive fire, where hits do not increase damage.

[Yerameyahu]

Sure, but you're still *hoping* you hit the single target. People have always pointed out that you can do things like Wide Called Shots, and that a Wide Burst is better at defeating hardened/vehicle armor. It does seem odd. I wonder how much hobgoblin's house rule would alter the game balance, and I use an alternate house rule for bursts that combines Wide and Narrow.

[Elfenlied]

IMO, hardened armor is the offender here, not the bursts.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* Bullets (and, I dunno, knives) really *should* go 'ping' against certain levels of vehicle and Barrier armor. It's realistic and it's cinematic. Spirits doing the same thing is basically half their schtick, I guess, though you could certainly change it without making them useless.

[sabs]

the thing is, spending edge to reroll the non-hits is invariably BETTER than using edge to add your edge dice. It's even marginally better than adding your edge before rolling.

Really, using edge to reroll the dice that didn't score hits, is so superior to all the other uses of Edge, that it makes you wonder why bother listing the other options.