[X] My Assistant

[Draco18s]

This means your possible hits are limited by skill*2.

Source? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)

[Irion]

Ah, I looked it up.
In the (old)corebook it is only an optional rule on page 69.
But I can't tell if this was changed or not. (I thought it was, or maybe it is just a rule used very often)
Thats the problem if you got a lot of errata worked into books but never released.

[Dakka Dakka]

With the reroll you can never have more than dice pool hits. Since you can not use the rule of six, no die can score more than one hit and at no point you will have more dice than your dice pool.

[Cain]

I'm really not supposed to go into this, but I have played a character with Edge 8 extensively. I'm not going to get into the comparative merits of it, but I will share a few observations:

1) Adding Edge to a small dice pool is a very good use, especially if the threshold is equal to or greater than 1/3 the base dice pool. It vastly improves your odds of success, even before factoring in exploding 6's.

2) Adding Edge dice after you roll is only valuable if you know you've failed by a small margin, and your base dice pool is mostly successes anyway. This is a slightly metagamey thing to do, though, and it's more efficient with a low Edge than a high one. If you have a high Edge, it's a little much.

3) Adding Edge dice to a large dice pool is frequently overkill. I don't have the math to compare if it's efficient or not, but it does tend to produce extreme results.

In regards to 3, sometimes you want overkill. If you're trying to kill a spirit with a pistol, your only hope is to score a massive number of successes and hope for the best. So, even with a large dice pool, there are times when it's better to add dice rather than reroll.

The main benefit is having an Edge of 8 is that you can add more dice than someone with an Edge of 3. Otherwise, the only benefit is that you get more uses out of it. I've honestly considered making a house rule at all values Edge give you a flat 6 dice, and the Edge score only tells you how often you can use it. It balances out Edge better. I've never tested this, though, so I can't say if it'd work or not.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm really not supposed to go into this, but I have played a character with Edge 8 extensively. I'm not going to get into the comparative merits of it, but I will share a few observations:

Why, exactly, are you not supposed to go into this? You keep saying it, and it makes absolutely no sense each and every time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

Cain
THat would turn Edge into basically Karma from Earthdawn.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Cain
THat would turn Edge into basically Karma from Earthdawn.

There is that, as well... I Don't think that I would like that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

Why, exactly, are you not supposed to go into this? You keep saying it, and it makes absolutely no sense each and every time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Gag order. I'm not allowed to go into it. Page 3, subsection 3.14. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

THat would turn Edge into basically Karma from Earthdawn.

I don't recall Earthdawn all that well, so I can't comment on that. I can say that I've seen firsthand many ways that a high Edge can unbalance the game. It's the power curve that does it: not only can you use it more often, but it gives you more dice each time. It'd be more balanced if it gave a flat rate of return.

[Seth]

Most people don't play Mr Lucky.
They play MR 3-4 edge.
Who is also an incredibly good hacker with a DP of 16. Or a GunSlinger with a DP of 18.
With guys like that, you have 2 situations.
1) I'm rolling for 6-7 hits. On average I get them, and that's not worth spending an extra edge on before I roll.
2) I'm rolling for 10+ hits, and I really need the exploding 6's.. so I already spent my edge.

But also that guy does other rolls.

• They decide to roll their mighty influence skills: Charisma 2, Skill 2
• They might decide to sneak past the guards: Agility 5, Skill 1
• They might want to repair their car: Logic 2, Skill -1
• They need to recognize that gang insignia: Intuition 4, Skill -1

So if you are already very good at something, rerolling failed die rocks. If you are not good at something, rolling the edge extra die and exploding 6s is really good.

Personally I like the edge mechanism: I use it to separate the PCs from the mooks. In my games NPCs hardly ever spend edge. I like it that edge is effective: in most games the "Luck" mechanism really sucks.

Example: Witchcraft. With luck 3 (costs you 30% of your quality points) you can once per session add 3 to a d10. Yawn....I am falling asleep already.

I don't recall Earthdawn all that well, so I can't comment on that. I can say that I've seen firsthand many ways that a high Edge can unbalance the game. It's the power curve that does it: not only can you use it more often, but it gives you more dice each time. It'd be more balanced if it gave a flat rate of return.

I've played a character with edge 6, and enjoyed it. However my highest unedged die roll was 12 die, and the more common was 6 to 8. The Hacker was rolling an unedged 17 die, the street samuari an unedged 15. So spending my edge got me to the same levels as they did... Having played a range (from 1 edge with badluck, to 6 edge), I can conclude that edge is an attribute that is less valuable than reactions or intuition, about the same value as body, but probably more generally useful than charisma, strength or agility. YMMV.

[Cain]

I've played a character with edge 6, and enjoyed it. However my highest unedged die roll was 12 die, and the more common was 6 to 8. The Hacker was rolling an unedged 17 die, the street samuari an unedged 15. So spending my edge got me to the same levels as they did... Having played a range (from 1 edge with badluck, to 6 edge), I can conclude that edge is an attribute that is less valuable than reactions or intuition, about the same value as body, but probably more generally useful than charisma, strength or agility. YMMV.

Again, not allowed to go into details, but it is entirely possible to have a balanced character with high base pools and an 8 Edge. You're right that some characters might get more benefit from other attributes: any combat-focused character will benefit from a high Quickness, since just about every combat skill is linked to it. But if you can mange both, it's a very powerful combination.

[Seth]

To get 8 edge:
Start at 2
quality: 20pts
getting from edge 2 to edge 7: 50pts
getting to edge 8: 25pts

I would hope that if I spent 100pts on something it would be powerful. You watch what I can do if I spend that on spellcasting / summoning / hacking / ...

I am agreeing with you: yes its powerful, in a way its almost like being a self buffing wizard.

Its nice that there are multiple ways you can build a character and still be effective. Compare with GURPS where there are only 2 valuable stats: DX and IQ.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Gag order. I'm not allowed to go into it. Page 3, subsection 3.14. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But WHY do you have a Gag Order? It makes no sense. Who cares about talking about Edge? It is not as if Edge is Illegal or anything... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I am sure that the things you have done with it are no more unique than the things I, or someone else, have done.
Not like the Gaming Police are going to kick your door down and drag you off to Prison. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

The first rule of gag order is don't talk about gag order. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Redjack]

Second rule of gag order is don't talk about gag order. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Hida Tsuzua]

Gag order. I'm not allowed to go into it. Page 3, subsection 3.14. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Mr. Lucky was 5 years ago. I think there's a statue of limitations on such things especially on the internet. Even if that's not the case and the mods will still beat you up, Mr. Lucky is way behind the curve. The inheritors of Mr. Lucky are much more able.

[KarmaInferno]

Ah, I looked it up.
In the (old)corebook it is only an optional rule on page 69.
But I can't tell if this was changed or not. (I thought it was, or maybe it is just a rule used very often)
Thats the problem if you got a lot of errata worked into books but never released.

Got moved to page 75 in SR4A. It's the "grittier gameplay" optional rule.



-k

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Having read the Topic (once when it came out, and just again), the "Gag Order" still makes no sense. Mr. Lucky is a fundamental build that has existed since SR4 was published. Nothing new in that, and nothing that requires a "Gag Order" to keep it a secret.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I'd hardly say 'fundamental'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) More like 'goofy trick'.

[Redjack]

nothing that requires a "Gag Order" to keep it a secret.

No attempts to keep anything secret and you are missing one thing, "context". That said, its not worth dredging up.

[Irion]

It also depends on how you refill edge in your group.
There are a lot of ways, it is done. Since there is no real rule about it.
From: Once eacht adventure or one point per day over edgeroll(hits) per day or on special occasions or every session reset.
If you play for 15 hours, rolling every 5 minutes there is not much benefit in edge if you are only getting a refill after that. (Or even worse if your edge regenerates independent form your pool AND slow)

If you get your edge refilled every day on the other hand...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No attempts to keep anything secret and you are missing one thing, "context". That said, its not worth dredging up.

There is that, Redjack... I was just somewhat confused about the "Gag Order" thing that Cain keeps mentioning. It made (makes) absolutely no sense. And this, after having read the relevant linked Topic multiple times.

[Redjack]

There is that, Redjack... I was just somewhat confused about the "Gag Order" thing that Cain keeps mentioning. It made (makes) absolutely no sense. And this, after having read the relevant linked Topic multiple times.

Didn't mean to come across quite so crass, its just one of those things best left in the past.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Didn't mean to come across quite so crass, its just one of those things best left in the past.

No worries... What happens in the past, stays in the past. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

It's not a secret, it's just the flames that grew around the build. I'd honestly prefer to leave it in the past.

That said, it's still entirely possible to create a decently balanced character who has 8 edge. A hyperspecialist does not need to have serious deficiencies. The latest pornomancer builds have decent dice pools in non-social areas, and that I believe is an even more serious investment.

If you're running around with 18+ dice in your primary skill set, you're great. But if you have 18+ dice *and* 8 Edge, you're beyond spectacular. And while it is an investment, it's not that hard to pull off. You're not required to sacrifice everything else.

As for the question of rerolls vs added dice, it depends on the situation. Added dice is always useful if you have a small dice pool, and rerolls are usually better if you have a large dice pool. But if you absolutely need something done right drekking now, then adding the dice pre-roll to an already huge pool gives you astounding results. Not only do you get 8 extra dice, all your dice explode, potentially leading to amazing results. If you have 26 exploding dice, you have the potential for 30+ successes, which is how you take out a Force 10 spirit with a pistol.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's not a secret, it's just the flames that grew around the build. I'd honestly prefer to leave it in the past.

That said, it's still entirely possible to create a decently balanced character who has 8 edge. A hyperspecialist does not need to have serious deficiencies. The latest pornomancer builds have decent dice pools in non-social areas, and that I believe is an even more serious investment.

Yeah, I agree, I have a fairly nice build with an 8 Edge. He is a little hyperspecialized (in Piloting), but otherwise, not too bad, and definitely playable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)