[X] My Assistant

[Dakka Dakka]

So you are telling me that right now 80% of the world population is "undocumented aliens"? (or as it seems the case, the USA population?)

Where did you get that figure?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Where did you get that figure?

I remember something from the second edition as the population of Seattle had some 80-ish% of SINless population, I'm assuming every major sprawl would be along these lines and since the major sprawls are also responsible for the majority of the world population...

[JanessaVR]

I remember something from the second edition as the population of Seattle had some 80-ish% of SINless population, I'm assuming every major sprawl would be along these lines and since the major sprawls are also responsible for the majority of the world population...

If so, that's nuts. Functional, modern cities of consisting of 80% undocumented "non-persons?" No way, I just don't buy it. An underclass, certainly. That *huge* of an underclass?! That's a *feral* city, not a modern city. I think you're describing Lagos, not Seattle.

[Ascalaphus]

Seattle also has more than normal numbers of SINless because a lot of people fled to it when the NAN took over the surrounding countryside. Enclaves are always a bit strange.

[Dakka Dakka]

I remember something from the second edition as the population of Seattle had some 80-ish% of SINless population, I'm assuming every major sprawl would be along these lines and since the major sprawls are also responsible for the majority of the world population...

So basically irrelevant. I'm pretty sure in 2nd Edition the cost for cloned organs was a lot higher and there was no equally clonable Type O.
Also the figure is pretty much nuts. If 80% of the population would a) not make much money and b) would not pay taxes, the society would not work.

[Blitz66]

I'm not entirely sure corporations don't have the majority of the power in the world now. It certainly seems to be going in that direction. There's a whole profession (lobbyists) that seems to exist only because of corporate interests.

Most things in most people's daily lives only exist because of corporate interests. You own a computer and a cell phone, probably. Likely bought your clothes in a store. Drive a car? Ride a bike or a bus? Ever been on the Internet or read a Shadowrun product? Do you grow all of your own food, or do you eat at a restaurant, fast food chain, or pick up groceries at a grocery store? If you do grow all your own food, how do you store it? How do you cook it? Ever take medicine, or have a medical procedure? Ever watch TV? Like sports at all?

Learn to love corporations.

Also, I'm with Tymeaus. Of all the elements of Shadowrun to break suspension of disbelief, it's the comparative costs of organlegging?

[Rubic]

After the matrix crash that lead to the 2.0 structure's wireless implementation, most people were SINless. While some was easily salvageable, most such situations were the victims of an overdependence on Matrix 1.0 digital data. This has lead to a new serfdom, with corporate masters commanding their indentured, underpaid servants (an exaggerated oversimplification).

As of 2070, the corporate world has adapted to having many available undocumented workers for cheap and consequence-lite labor. For Seattle, it's easy to understand that most SINners will be living around Downtown, Bellevue, Renton, and Aubern, while the SINless will likely be in the barrens, industrial areas, out of the way places, with the poorer SINners being somewhere between. Add that hiring SINless isn't necessarily illegal in 2070 as its modern equivalent would be in the USA.

[Rubic]

So basically irrelevant. I'm pretty sure in 2nd Edition the cost for cloned organs was a lot higher and there was no equally clonable Type O.
Also the figure is pretty much nuts. If 80% of the population would a) not make much money and b) would not pay taxes, the society would not work.

addressing point B, Texas earns its state revenue through sales tax rather than payroll tax. Makes more sense when undocumented persons may be expending a large share of your resources.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Short version – I have tighter standards for my suspension of disbelief than you do. That said, we’re in the planning stages of a big new campaign – one that addresses pretty much all of these concerns outside of mana.

It is not really about having tighter standards for Suspension of Disbelief. I live in the real world all day long, Every Day, 365 Days a Year. I enjoy the Dystopian World of Shadowrun, with all of its peculiarities. They are what make the world come alive, as far as I am concerned.

No worries though; you did answer my question. Thanks for the Information. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Modular Man]

The other thing is the whole practicality issue. You have a very limited customer base (those that need an organ and either can't afford the legal avenue or don't want to take it). Without Type O you also have a very limited supply of goods. Not only must the organs be in good condition they also need to match the recipient. So you will either need large storage capacity, if storing is possible at all, or you need a lot of manpower to hunt the organs down in time. [...] Lastly working globally would make matching donor and recipient easier but would add additional transport cost. This is all the cost I can think of if organlegging were a legitimate business. The overhead from concealing it will add to that.

Well, I think that's why there's only the big players in this business, and only so few of them. A local black hospital would hardly have the resources for this, of course.
Probably there are even some technological advancements so transport and storage are easier than today, maybe even immune supression. If in doubt, magic might help (at least with the former two).

Mainstream society doesn't really have any real use for Tamanous. Tamanous doesn't have much to offer to most powerful groups, and they're freaky, so they'd make a very good scapegoat for other criminal syndicates who want to deflect heat.

Wouldn't seem to be profitable for them, from my point of view. Nobody likes Tamanous and such anyway, but they're hell of an opponent - they have nowhere else to go, nothing else to do, especially not the ghouls. So if you threaten to take away their business, they will fight like a wounded, cornered animal. Most of the time, they don't even endanger the business sector of other syndicates. They are basically people "not to mess with", and they may have some cash to back them up, too.

Another possibility would be that type O is illegal. Think about Type O skin transplant. Would you still shed skin cells with your DNA?

Well, thank you, you just gave me a great idea to try... Well, Genewipe modification is somewhat cheap anyway.

Well, back to the original topic:
Did you notice blood fetishes, mentiones in "Digital Grimoire"? It's not specified how these are created, except that it's blood magic, which generally involves human suffering. So other metahumans might be the source... Might even be someone else's bones or scarier. Those things are, according to "Vice", increedingly popular on the streets/in the shadows. This might be a viable side market to organ-leggers.

[Faelan]

In the Seattle 2072 Sourcebook page 8 offer a non corporate affiliated population percentage of which a large percentage is probably SINless. Look at Puyallup and Redmond for corporate affiliation and compare to the fluff. Yeah the Sixth World is that jacked up. Who cares if half the population controlling 5% of the wealth does not pay taxes. Ever been to a third world country, imagine little kids eating your trash, and smiling because it is the best they have eaten in months. Take that image and superimpose it on the whole world and you have Shadowrun.

[redwulf25]

You fail to grasp something here, the mob will make loans to anyone they can reasonably expect to PAY. They are making a loan with at least a 20% a month interest rate. Where is this poor schmuck going to get the money to pay the interest let alone pay back on the principal. He better have assets, oh wait he would have looked at selling things off in the first place. Is his body worth the money they are loaning him? Probably not. So why woul dth emob ever loan him the money in the first place? The mob wants it's money, not broken kneecaps, or bodies, and it does not make investments in horses they cant kill for the insurance later on.

Well, there are other ways you could pay the nuyen back to them, for example your lovely daughter in their brothel. Or even if your business doesn't seem likely to make back the cash maybe they could use it as a front for one of their enterprises. Or taken from an old Leverage episode, the boss just killed somebody and someone needs to take the fall for it.

[Faelan]

Well, there are other ways you could pay the nuyen back to them, for example your lovely daughter in their brothel. Or even if your business doesn't seem likely to make back the cash maybe they could use it as a front for one of their enterprises. Or taken from an old Leverage episode, the boss just killed somebody and someone needs to take the fall for it.

If you have a business there is a good chance you could afford it, and yes they would loan you the money, but you are the exception not the rule. Also your daughter is likely going to wind up addicted to something anyway and living in a brothel while her pimp feeds her addiction. They don't need you to get her. Leverage meh, fun to watch but really not that up on their shit.