[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Does organletting fit the atmosphere of SR? Yes. Do I think it can be a profitable enterprise with the given rules? No.

Hmmmm... I agree and then I disagree...

The game says it works, and that is enough for me. I don't need to spend hours of time trying to make it more plausible than the books say it already is. I have had my 2 Nuyen Point of View inserted.

It works, becuase it says it works. But no worries. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

It works, becuase it says it works. But no worries. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Unfortunately that is the case for a lot of things in SR.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually organlegging exists IRL, where it makes more sense, due to waiting lists for voluntary donations. But the prices are way higher.

The demand for stolen organs in SR isn't nearly as high as that for drugs. Only poor people want them. And they're harder to traffic in than drugs.

Mainstream society doesn't really have any real use for Tamanous. Tamanous doesn't have much to offer to most powerful groups, and they're freaky, so they'd make a very good scapegoat for other criminal syndicates who want to deflect heat.

I know it exists, but it is not prevalent. I have seen current topics of discussion on this subject. I expect some change to take place in the future, just not sure as to when that change will occur. Unfortunately, some laws (in America at least) will have to be changed before we can addresss this topic in the way that it needs to be addressed.

And yes, Mainstream Society in Shadowrun has absolutely no use for Tamanous. Never argued that it did. But it does have use, and it does have impact and power, or they would not exist.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Unfortunately that is the case for a lot of things in SR.

Which I am okay with. I do not see it as Unfortunate. It is a fictional Universe, with its own rules and ways of doing things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[JanessaVR]

The game says it works, and that is enough for me. I don't need to spend hours of time trying to make it more plausible than the books say it already is. I have had my 2 Nuyen Point of View inserted.

If that works for you, go for it, I guess. For me, if I can't find some vaguely rational explanation for something in an RPG, it’s out of the game. In some cases, that means I don’t play some games *at all* as I find their premise to be so ridiculous that I cannot suspend disbelief. With SR, I’ll accept the existence of mana, which allows the cold, hard laws of physics to be circumvented (in certain, specific ways).

Outside of that, anything else must justify its existence or be relegated to the chopping block, posthaste. And as far as I’m concerned, having analyzed the scenario in the SR world, I find no justification for how it could possibly work as a business model, or indeed, how it really makes since at all. [chop!] It’s gone.

I prefer to think for myself. Just because some RPG rulebook says something, doesn’t mean I’ll always take it at face value.

[Zaranthan]

I’ll accept the existence of mana, which allows the cold, hard laws of physics to be circumvented (in certain, specific ways).

<SNIP>

I actually use this as the basis for my suspension of disbelief in any fantasy game system. The existence of magic means that Physics is NOT the underlying law of existence, therefore nothing needs to obey it. You get people that can vastly exceed the limits of human strength, agility, etc. not through the direct application of magic, but merely because magic EXISTS.

[Rubic]

If that works for you, go for it, I guess. For me, if I can't find some vaguely rational explanation for something in an RPG, it’s out of the game. In some cases, that means I don’t play some games *at all* as I find their premise to be so ridiculous that I cannot suspend disbelief. With SR, I’ll accept the existence of mana, which allows the cold, hard laws of physics to be circumvented (in certain, specific ways).

Outside of that, anything else must justify its existence or be relegated to the chopping block, posthaste. And as far as I’m concerned, having analyzed the scenario in the SR world, I find no justification for how it could possibly work as a business model, or indeed, how it really makes since at all. [chop!] It’s gone.

I prefer to think for myself. Just because some RPG rulebook says something, doesn’t mean I’ll always take it at face value.

A wizard, a corp, a dragon, or something else did it. Justified, as per your acceptance of magic.

Honestly, there are many people who cannot afford health care in the modern day. In 2072, the problem is bigger, more widespread. Any body parts that Tamanous cannot sell for transplants can be sold for food, or used to pay ghouls in their employ. Hell, some people are going to be morally bankrupt enough to have those bodies cooked and eaten simply as a matter of pride and feeling untouchable and powerful. There are certain subjects that a person less acquainted with inequity, brutality, poverty, and desperation would not even consider or understand when thus presented. It would be unthinkable to such a person.

But then, you have a poor, desperate father, trying to feed and protect his kids in the barrens, when one of them gets sick from drinking the polluted water. His child needs a new kidney, and a vat-grown replacement is too expensive. That tamanous guy who stopped by earlier said he'd be happy to arrange the surgery, but he needs a favor or two in exchange, nothing too dangerous compared to where the father is living, and he'll even make a few nuyen extra at the end of it. Now the father has salvation, and an easy source of nuyen if he wants to go deeper into the hole. It's not like anybody cares about his family but him, and these are all just nameless faces he's moving.

Fred down the road, he was a good man. Stood by his morals, up until the day when a few bullets set him low. It was sad that those bullets weren't even aimed for him. Man, he'd be here, drinking with us today if he'd just held onto that Tamanous card. I kind of feel bad, I never told him I still have mine. Well, now I at least don't have to worry what he'd think of me working part time at their clinic, but my saying no won't get me out of this slum and into some decent h*cough cough* ehrm, housing.

[Fatum]

See, that discussion above is just the reason I suggest handwaving organslegging the way you like it in your campaign.

[JanessaVR]

I actually use this as the basis for my suspension of disbelief in any fantasy game system. The existence of magic means that Physics is NOT the underlying law of existence, therefore nothing needs to obey it. You get people that can vastly exceed the limits of human strength, agility, etc. not through the direct application of magic, but merely because magic EXISTS.

Definitely different from my approach. Defying the laws of physics is *only* possible through the use of mana. In areas with no mana, the laws of physics reign supreme and unchallenged.

I don't actually see how your approach makes any sense at all. The fact that biological life and mundane technology exist, things that existed *before* the introduction of magic, and continue to function after it, is a very good indicator that the mundane laws of physics are scarcely outdated and incorrect. And I would argue that the SR world, at least, supports my view. How well do magical abilities work in mana voids, such as outer space? No mana, no super powers.

That said, if you want to go with your approach, Call of Cthulhu is the game for you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[JanessaVR]

A wizard, a corp, a dragon, or something else did it. Justified, as per your acceptance of magic.

You *could* go that way, but there's a writing principle I'm fond of, and I try to hold books, movies, RPG's, etc to it:

You're allowed one improbable thing in your story/world, as long as you do something interesting with it.

For SR, that thing is mana. As improbable things go, it's a great choice. With this one improbable thing, you get spells, magical creatures, the metaplanes; a plethora of wonderful ideas are justified with it.

But if you start piling improbable thing after improbable thing all on top of each other, it strains suspension of disbelief. This is ultimately subjective, and everyone's limits are different. I suspect I have higher standards than anyone I've seen here so far as I'm not really willing to accept any big improbable things beyond the existence of mana. Politics, business, medicine, legal issues, social structures, economics, character behavior - all of these must stand on their own two feet as far as I'm concerned, with no "justifications" that really consist of handwaving concerns away.

YMMV...

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

You *could* go that way, but there's a writing principle I'm fond of, and I try to hold books, movies, RPG's, etc to it:

You're allowed one improbable thing in your story/world, as long as you do something interesting with it.

For SR, that thing is mana. As improbable things go, it's a great choice. With this one improbable thing, you get spells, magical creatures, the metaplanes; a plethora of wonderful ideas are justified with it.

But if you start piling improbable thing after improbable thing all on top of each other, it strains suspension of disbelief. This is ultimately subjective, and everyone's limits are different. I suspect I have higher standards than anyone I've seen here so far as I'm not really willing to accept any big improbable things beyond the existence of mana. Politics, business, medicine, legal issues, social structures, economics, character behavior - all of these must stand on their own two feet as far as I'm concerned, with no "justifications" that really consist of handwaving concerns away.

YMMV...

You forget our RL™ world is diferent from Shadowrun™ world. Both diverge probably from the time of dinossaurs or even earlier.
You can't apply politics and economics the same way they work on our world because the Sixth World is a completely different world.
Life is cheap in the Sixth World. That's why the UCAS' doctrine is not completely worried about issuing milspec armor to every soldier because it is way expensive and soldier's lives are not, that is completely different from the USA's doctrine of minimizing the risk to the lives of their soldiers as best as they can.
Considering that the Sixth World has about 6-8 billions people and something like 80% of them don't have the most basic stuff like clean water, proper housing and proper food.

[Rubic]

You *could* go that way, but there's a writing principle I'm fond of, and I try to hold books, movies, RPG's, etc to it:

You're allowed one improbable thing in your story/world, as long as you do something interesting with it.

For SR, that thing is mana. As improbable things go, it's a great choice. With this one improbable thing, you get spells, magical creatures, the metaplanes; a plethora of wonderful ideas are justified with it.

But if you start piling improbable thing after improbable thing all on top of each other, it strains suspension of disbelief. This is ultimately subjective, and everyone's limits are different. I suspect I have higher standards than anyone I've seen here so far as I'm not really willing to accept any big improbable things beyond the existence of mana. Politics, business, medicine, legal issues, social structures, economics, character behavior - all of these must stand on their own two feet as far as I'm concerned, with no "justifications" that really consist of handwaving concerns away.

YMMV...

I thought my post above did a good job of explaining WHY organlegging works, and giving examples of 2 different people, 2 different personalities and motivations, to drive a person to use and work for such organizations. If all you're going to do is cherry pick one sentence from it, one that addressed the weakness in your presented argument, then whatever. Saying you'll accept magic basically means that "A wizard did it" or "a dragon did it" is a viable explanation (cop out though it may be). Nobody knows the extent of Tamanous' slimy tendrils, but there are very viable ground-level reasons, plenty of local market in many locations, where Tamanous can prey off of the needs of the unfortunate or poor, not merely for selling their services, but for cheap and loyal labor.

Organ transplants are not the exclusive benefit of organ legging. I have previously (I forget if it was this thread or another) given some alternate ways to use the organs. I'll try to go into more detail:

- amino acids
- pheremones
- horomones
- stem cells (can be harvested from adults, and includes bone marrow)
- fats
- nervous tissue
- replacement/implant body parts
- blood (maybe even 'cattle' for blood farms if we're talking live acquisitions)
- tumors (important for study and research)
- pathological agents
- DNA
- hair
- homeopathic remedies (powdered orc gonads for virility)
- 2nd hand bioware (if they know the target has it) and cyberware
- canniblistic meals (not exclusively for ghouls; that humanis chapter leader secretly loves to have Troll liver for dinner, so that he can be more powerful than his enemies)
- muscles and tendons for repair/replacement
- cartillage
- bones for replacement or even arts and crafts

There's likely more. And Tamanous deals in it all, not always directly. Any body part can be used, preferably all (Let me use all parts of the beast, so that nothing goes to waste!).

[JanessaVR]

I thought my post above did a good job of explaining WHY organlegging works, and giving examples of 2 different people, 2 different personalities and motivations, to drive a person to use and work for such organizations. If all you're going to do is cherry pick one sentence from it, one that addressed the weakness in your presented argument, then whatever. Saying you'll accept magic basically means that "A wizard did it" or "a dragon did it" is a viable explanation (cop out though it may be). Nobody knows the extent of Tamanous' slimy tendrils, but there are very viable ground-level reasons, plenty of local market in many locations, where Tamanous can prey off of the needs of the unfortunate or poor, not merely for selling their services, but for cheap and loyal labor.

Organ transplants are not the exclusive benefit of organ legging. I have previously (I forget if it was this thread or another) given some alternate ways to use the organs. I'll try to go into more detail:

Again, I'm saying that I'll accept a big improbable thing *once* (as long as it goes somewhere interesting), but not 50 times. As mana's already taking up that slot for SR, no room for anything else.

As for organlegging, I was indeed thinking exclusively of organ transplants. I hadn't really considered these other uses. I'll bring this up to my gaming group, bounce some ideas around, see what we think of it. If that turns out to be useful in some way, thanks in advance. But organlegging for transplants is still retconned for us. I'm more inclined to believe in a black market for knockoff cloned organs - *that* makes more sense. If you're going to have an illegal medical operation going on, why not grow your own Type O organs - of dubious quality, naturally...

[suoq]

You can't apply politics and economics the same way they work on our world because the Sixth World is a completely different world.

If you're going to sit around the table with other people and play, then yes, it's much better to "apply politics and economics the same way they work on our world" because it's a common point of reference. Add enough stuff that works different and eventually people are going to get up and leave because they don't understand the unique vision that you're trying to force them into. The further you go from consensual reality, the harder it is for a random person to work with your vision.

Honestly it wouldn't surprise me one bit to find there's a group out there playing "No Awakened" Shadowrun.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Again, I'm saying that I'll accept a big improbable thing *once* (as long as it goes somewhere interesting), but not 50 times. As mana's already taking up that slot for SR, no room for anything else.

And yet Shadowrun has Multiple Improbabilities...

Mana
Resonance
Matrix
Cyberware
Fantasy Races
Corporate Entities Control the World
The NAN
The TIR's
Life Is Cheap
Etc...

Why do you even Play Shadowrun with all of its Improbablilities. I would think, from your previous post, you would avoid it like the Plague. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

If you're going to have an illegal medical operation going on, why not grow your own Type O organs - of dubious quality, naturally...

Funny you mention that. This is the main plot of a Denver Missions (forget which one right now).

[ Spoiler ]

The players are hired by DocWagon to investigate the kidnapping of some of their clients. They are all female orks. After some investigation, they find out that they are all type Owen.
When the players finally discover where they are hidden, they are inside a warehouse filled with ghouls with female orks straped on gurneys receiving IV and being impregnated so the Tamanous can get the litter and strip them of their organs and merrow. Pretty creepy stuff..

[Dakka Dakka]

Again, I'm saying that I'll accept a big improbable thing *once* (as long as it goes somewhere interesting), but not 50 times. As mana's already taking up that slot for SR, no room for anything else.

SR actually has two more core improbabilities: The matrix and 'ware

[Faelan]

The Mob doesn't always expect people to pay back those loans. If they can't pay them back, the Mob owns them, which can be useful itself.

Owning someone is only useful if they have a position or collateral you can exploit. If they don't which the vast majority of the unwashed SINless fall into the category of NO LOAN. The Mob does not make a habit of making loans to people with no use, and no possessions. In other words they don't make loans to a heroin addict.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

If you're going to sit around the table with other people and play, then yes, it's much better to "apply politics and economics the same way they work on our world" because it's a common point of reference.

But they don't. Because if they did, then the Sixth World would basically be a modern world with magic and fantastic creatures and corporations wouldn't control the world.
Sure, coup d'états could have brought some countries down and dragons and elves could take control and found new countries (Tír na n'Óg and Amazonia) but corporations wouldn't even be allowed to dream of extra-territoriality and there wouldn't be masses and masses of SINles.

[suoq]

organlegging for transplants is still retconned for us. I'm more inclined to believe in a black market for knockoff cloned organs - *that* makes more sense. If you're going to have an illegal medical operation going on, why not grow your own Type O organs - of dubious quality, naturally...

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I am curious. Is that retconning a "local" thing or a "worldwide" thing? Can criminal organizations set up a Type O lab anywhere in the world where it's possible to do an organ transplant or do backstreet Type O labs tend to only exist in ares with reliable power, water, etc.

[suoq]

But they don't. Because if they did, then the Sixth World would basically be a modern world with magic and fantastic creatures and corporations wouldn't control the world.

I'm not entirely sure corporations don't have the majority of the power in the world now. It certainly seems to be going in that direction. There's a whole profession (lobbyists) that seems to exist only because of corporate interests.

corporations wouldn't even be allowed to dream of extra-territoriality

Why not? It's called "Corporatocracy". It's a common theme at various levels, from where a corporation puts it's headquarters to books like "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man".

and there wouldn't be masses and masses of SINles.

We have them now. They're called undocumented aliens.

Corporations running everything and undocumented people about rights are a common theme in politics running from the well documented to completely tin-foil hat, but they're part of the common experience and that helps people work with them.

[Rubic]

Some things people might not realize is the alternate use for some biological donor material. Harvested blood's plasma is used in the creation of insulin, and medication can be made from just about every gland to treat some disorder or another without even considering derivatives thereof.

Edit:

If you're going to have an illegal medical operation going on, why not grow your own Type O organs - of dubious quality, naturally...

You need to get the biological material from somewhere....

these are adult stem cells, harvested from perfectly healthy adults whom I killed for their stem cells.

[JanessaVR]

And yet Shadowrun has Multiple Improbabilities...

Mana
Resonance
Matrix
Cyberware
Fantasy Races
Corporate Entities Control the World
The NAN
The TIR's
Life Is Cheap
Etc...

Why do you even Play Shadowrun with all of its Improbablilities. I would think, from your previous post, you would avoid it like the Plague. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Actually, those things *have* been altered at our gaming table, I just didn’t want to post an exhaustive list of our house rules (which are easily a dozen pages long).

Mana: Already covered – the one big improbable thing the SR world gets, as it has indeed done something interesting with it.

Resonance: It was previously thought that magic and technology were incompatible (to a great degree). The existence of verifiably Awakened individuals who can’t cast normal spells or summon normal spirits, but have the ability to mimic those abilities inside the matrix has caused quite a stir recently, especially in the magical community where this was previously thought to be impossible. Research continues…

Matrix: You don’t believe in the existence of an evolved internet?

Cyberware: I fail to see why you’ve listed this here. I see no reason why, following current technological developments, that this technology will not exist someday – at least some of it. Some more ridiculous pieces have been retconned (no, I don’t have the full list with me at present). The biggest problem is power – cyberlimbs that bench-press cars and run for days with no recharging are the most laughable pieces.

Fantasy Races: These are magical creatures, so they’re already covered under mana, don’t know why this is listed here.

Corporate Entities Control the World/The NAN/The Tirs: A touch of a problem here. The entire thing with megacorps and extraterritoriality is covered under the Business Recognition Accords, something that, if I recall correctly, came about at around the time as great global unrest, which is actually a good time to introduce new political structures. If the BRA can exist, so can the megacorps (room for debate here, yes, I know). The NAN’s boundaries have been scaled back considerably in our game – UCAS is much bigger. The Tir’s were essentially wars of territorial conquest if I recall correctly, won by secessionist-minded elves with magical support to back them up. Probably time for me to do a thorough re-read of SR history. You’re inspiring me to snip yet more! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Life Is Cheap: Starting to wonder if we’re headed that way now, even in first world nations, as the Great Global Recession rolls on and on. That said, this is toned down in our game.

And this debate is spiraling out of control…

Short version – I have tighter standards for my suspension of disbelief than you do. That said, we’re in the planning stages of a big new campaign – one that addresses pretty much all of these concerns outside of mana.

SHADOWRUN 2012:
The Awakening has just occurred. The point of divergence from our world is December 21st, 2012. That was yesterday. Go.

[Rubic]

Life is Cheap: Even human and metahuman life is subject to the laws of supply and demand. Tamanous - keeping metahumanity in demand!

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I'm not entirely sure corporations don't have the majority of the power in the world now. It certainly seems to be going in that direction. There's a whole profession (lobbyists) that seems to exist only because of corporate interests. Why not? It's called "Corporatocracy". It's a common theme at various levels, from where a corporation puts it's headquarters to books like "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man".

And even lobbyists need the government to work, that's why they are lobbyists. The way the corporations work in Shadowrun they don't need governments to work as they work.

We have them now. They're called undocumented aliens.

So you are telling me that right now 80% of the world population is "undocumented aliens"? (or as it seems the case, the USA population?)
The only period of time that I can think that resembles the masses of SINlees population of the Sixth World to our RL™ world is the industrial revolution and mass immigration from rural areas to urban areas, with people working 10-12 hours a day in a terrible enviroment earning less than what it takes to make a living.