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> Nanoforges, a goal or a pipe dream?
Rubic
post Jul 13 2011, 06:30 AM
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I've seen mentioned the existence of Nanoforges and Desktop Forges. However, I've spent hours looking in the books for rules and, I'm not ashamed to admit, prices. But are these wondrous inventions pure fluff, something achievable, or merely another unreachable goal for us to strive for?

Edit: I do know about desktop forges, but as a side question, are the corp nanoforges of a higher quality or roughly the same?
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Elfenlied
post Jul 13 2011, 07:57 AM
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Well,in WAR! there's a nanoforge for AK-147 carbines, assault rifles and ammo, and it costs like 600k and availability above restricted gear. Also, you'll need clean nanomaterial to make anything useful, and its expensive.
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TheOOB
post Jul 13 2011, 08:43 AM
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Only ones of know of are on arsenal page 130 which you said you know about.

I imagine corps do in fact have larger and better forges, but they are tightly controlled, and only used for certain projects.
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Mardrax
post Jul 13 2011, 12:23 PM
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This would be one angle this kind of thing is coming from IRL.
They're already being used to make, for example, bikinis. It's mostly a niche product for now though, costs are a tad prohibitive, but I'd expect them to show up more and more as availability increases and prices decline.
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Tycho
post Jul 13 2011, 12:50 PM
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This is a RL Nanoforge

This things are used in Rapid Prototyping and Rapid Manufacturing today, with plastic and metal structures. They are even cheaper than traditional manufacturing in some areas (highly complex parts like turbine fans with cooling channels).

Watch this...

cya
Tycho
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Rubic
post Jul 13 2011, 12:54 PM
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quite interesting, I haven't looked through WAR! so color me pleasantly surprised. While the irl ones were interesting, I was referring more to in game.
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nezumi
post Jul 13 2011, 01:02 PM
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I don't know that I'd call a 3D prototyper a 'nanoforge'. It is certainly not 'nano'. It's hardly even 'micro'. Nano refers to functions on the atomic level. We have done some real life nanoforging. People have etched names a few microns wide, for instance. However, using it requires a lot of big gear. Using it to make macro objects requires a LOT of BIG gear.

The caveat here is I don't play SR4. The writers may have misused the term. A 3D prototyper like what Tycho linked to seems much more appropriate. I can't imagine using a nanoforge to make AKs of all things. A 3D prototyper should be reasonably available by 2060 for about $1,000 or less. Any price above that is due to corporate monkeying around (which is completely reasonable. If corporations could charge us $10,000 for the 'copy disc' functionality on our computers, they'd do that too.)

Total aside, I'm playing SpaceChem right now, which is a fantastic game, and a great example of low-level nanoforging. Go download the demo.
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Rubic
post Jul 13 2011, 04:22 PM
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QUOTE (nezumi @ Jul 13 2011, 09:02 AM) *
The caveat here is I don't play SR4. The writers may have misused the term. A 3D prototyper like what Tycho linked to seems much more appropriate. I can't imagine using a nanoforge to make AKs of all things. A 3D prototyper should be reasonably available by 2060 for about $1,000 or less. Any price above that is due to corporate monkeying around (which is completely reasonable. If corporations could charge us $10,000 for the 'copy disc' functionality on our computers, they'd do that too.)

In SR4, Corps are the reason the desktop forges cost 15,000 for the shop version and 150,000 for one that does the equivalent of a facility, minus the machines such as lifts and whatnot.
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Ascalaphus
post Jul 13 2011, 06:36 PM
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Basically, nanotech was put under wraps somewhere around 2029 and didn't get out until after 2064. Someone apparently thought it would disrupt corporate economic hegemony.
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Sengir
post Jul 13 2011, 08:15 PM
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QUOTE (nezumi @ Jul 13 2011, 01:02 PM) *
I don't know that I'd call a 3D prototyper a 'nanoforge'. It is certainly not 'nano'. It's hardly even 'micro'

Current methods (I know about stereo lithography, probably also some others) can already go down to m scale; given how far semiconductor production has developed n the last two decades I'd say rapid prototyping on nm scale is a sure bet for the future.

You are right, however, in the Shadowrun meaning of "nano"...far too little handwaving and unobtanium for that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Rubic
post Jul 13 2011, 08:36 PM
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Another fun idea I've recently had... a mage with Shape [Metal], would such person be able to use their reality warping power to forge high quality metal items on par with artificially produced items such as high-carbon, high-tensile strength blades without the normal downside of penalties for highly processed materials? Assuming access to a proper furnace for refinement and conventional forge for shaping/folding, of course.
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Ryu
post Jul 13 2011, 09:19 PM
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QUOTE (Rubic @ Jul 13 2011, 06:22 PM) *
In SR4, Corps are the reason the desktop forges cost 15,000 for the shop version and 150,000 for one that does the equivalent of a facility, minus the machines such as lifts and whatnot.

The small version is interesting at 15k due to the ability to create illegal items from generic feedstock. The AK might not raise eyebrows, missile shells and anti-air turrets are a different thing. And the blueprints will exist, as it is much easier and cheaper for the military to provide a forge + feedstock rather than a full set of spare parts for everything.

With an availability of 10E for the small version, go ahead. The large version is an option for those who are already considering to buy a specialised facility. Pricey at 150k+Restricted Gear.
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Sengir
post Jul 13 2011, 09:19 PM
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QUOTE (Rubic @ Jul 13 2011, 09:36 PM) *
Another fun idea I've recently had... a mage with Shape [Metal], would such person be able to use their reality warping power to forge high quality metal items on par with artificially produced items such as high-carbon, high-tensile strength blades without the normal downside of penalties for highly processed materials?

Alloying elements cannot be changed by merely reshaping something, and tensile strength only within certain limits. Or vice versa, mono-crystalline steel with dozens of exotic alloying elements in high percentages is a highly processed material, no matter whether it gets shaped in a zero-g factory or hammered by hand by an old master whose knowledge was passed down from father to son for generations (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Rubic
post Jul 13 2011, 09:24 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 13 2011, 05:19 PM) *
Alloying elements cannot be changed by merely reshaping something, and tensile strength only within certain limits. Or vice versa, mono-crystalline steel with dozens of exotic alloying elements in high percentages is a highly processed material, no matter whether it gets shaped in a zero-g factory or hammered by hand by an old master whose knowledge was passed down from father to son for generations (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I didn't ask about an old master who's knowledge etc. I asked about Shape Element spell for Metal.
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Draco18s
post Jul 13 2011, 09:28 PM
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QUOTE (Rubic @ Jul 13 2011, 05:24 PM) *
I didn't ask about an old master who's knowledge etc. I asked about Shape Element spell for Metal.


There's a skill check involved for doing "nice looking" things.
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Rubic
post Jul 13 2011, 09:32 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 13 2011, 05:28 PM) *
There's a skill check involved for doing "nice looking" things.

Understandable. However, as it's an almost purely magic-based creation method (mundane or magical heat being the other element), would the product still face a high object-resistance threshold for being a processed work, or would it be easier to enchant because of the fundaments of its creation?
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Ryu
post Jul 13 2011, 09:43 PM
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QUOTE (Rubic @ Jul 13 2011, 11:24 PM) *
I didn't ask about an old master who's knowledge etc. I asked about Shape Element spell for Metal.

Sengir answered that question. Some materials are highly processed even in a raw state. Magic has to cope.

Your creation is a self-made telesma, resulting in a 0 modifier for the enchanting test. Certainly the fastest way to get one.
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Sengir
post Jul 13 2011, 09:55 PM
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QUOTE (Rubic @ Jul 13 2011, 09:24 PM) *
I didn't ask about an old master who's knowledge etc. I asked about Shape Element spell for Metal.

You asked whether something shaped without high-tech manufacturing methods counts as "highly processed" as far as the rules are concerned, I answered. If you are unable to transfer the lessons learned from that example to an analogous scenario, oh well...
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HunterHerne
post Jul 13 2011, 10:01 PM
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QUOTE (Rubic @ Jul 13 2011, 05:36 PM) *
Another fun idea I've recently had... a mage with Shape [Metal], would such person be able to use their reality warping power to forge high quality metal items on par with artificially produced items such as high-carbon, high-tensile strength blades without the normal downside of penalties for highly processed materials? Assuming access to a proper furnace for refinement and conventional forge for shaping/folding, of course.


I`ve thought about this idea, as well, although mostly in conjunction with other "industrial" spells. As a GM I would allow it's use, but only in a way that it acts almost like a teamwork test, The net hits of the spell act as a modifier to the dice pool, to a maximum of spell force (as normal for spells), or the primary skill (In the blades case, armourer), whichever is lower.

The alloys would be highly processed before the spell affects them, so they would still have an OR of 3
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Rubic
post Jul 13 2011, 10:07 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 13 2011, 05:55 PM) *
You asked whether something shaped without high-tech manufacturing methods counts as "highly processed" as far as the rules are concerned, I answered. If you are unable to transfer the lessons learned from that example to an analogous scenario, oh well...

Still, according to your example, Orichalcum is a highly processed material (it is, but on the magical side of the spectrum) and as such would require a high object resistance threshold (it doesn't). Ryu further stated that some materials are naturally considered "highly processed," and as such answered the question, specifically whether magically refining the metal would result in a lower object resistance.

Hunterherne has an interesting idea that's, more or less, RAW, except that total hits, not net hits, are generally what's limited by spell force (total effect being either Force + hits - resistance or Force for effect, hits - resistance for magnitude).
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HunterHerne
post Jul 13 2011, 10:13 PM
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QUOTE (Rubic @ Jul 13 2011, 07:07 PM) *
Still, according to your example, Orichalcum is a highly processed material (it is, but on the magical side of the spectrum) and as such would require a high object resistance threshold (it doesn't). Ryu further stated that some materials are naturally considered "highly processed," and as such answered the question, specifically whether magically refining the metal would result in a lower object resistance.

Hunterherne has an interesting idea that's, more or less, RAW, except that total hits, not net hits, are generally what's limited by spell force (total effect being either Force + hits - resistance or Force for effect, hits - resistance for magnitude).


My mistake there. You are right. It still limits the ability to use the spell to be a super crafter, though.

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Rubic
post Jul 13 2011, 10:30 PM
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QUOTE (HunterHerne @ Jul 13 2011, 06:13 PM) *
My mistake there. You are right. It still limits the ability to use the spell to be a super crafter, though.

It makes those snazzy, personalized graphics easier to etch on the blade, though. That extra level of sexy any good runner needs B)
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CanRay
post Jul 13 2011, 10:33 PM
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Considering the massive abuses that can occur from Nanoforges, and how complex and intricate they are to build, feed, and maintain, I figure they're going to be held under tight wraps for quite some time.

With the exception of One-Trick devices like the AK-Nanoforge. Not entirely sure how I feel about it game-wise, but from a logistics point of view it's a godsend for replacing used up/broken parts in the field without having a huge train behind you (Just need a bolt? Done. Just need a new barrel? Pop. And so on.). The downside is, how heavy/expensive is that feedstock, and how available is it?

The few that aren't in the hands of legit organizations are probably highly guarded and tightly used by Organized Crime, likely in areas that won't track back to them easily but are in areas that are desperately required (Making parts to restore old, obsolete but plentiful aircraft for instance, giving them performance equal to modern equipment despite their age.).
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kzt
post Jul 14 2011, 06:21 AM
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QUOTE (Rubic @ Jul 13 2011, 03:30 PM) *
It makes those snazzy, personalized graphics easier to etch on the blade, though. That extra level of sexy any good runner needs B)

The KE mages like it even more.
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Rubic
post Jul 14 2011, 05:53 PM
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QUOTE (kzt @ Jul 14 2011, 02:21 AM) *
The KE mages like it even more.

Don't tell my players that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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