[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

* I have just noticed that by RAW a short burst followed by a long burst in the same action phase does not accumulate recoil in the way that two short bursts do. I.e. two short bursts give recoil penalties of -2 and -5, but a short then a long is technically -2 and -6 where it logically should be -2 and -8. I have no doubt at all, though, that this is a simple omission of the word 'additional' in the long bursts description and have no intention of ever playing it that way.

Actually, A Short Burst is -2, and a Long Bust is -6. There is no need for the word "additional," becasue it is not in addition to the already initiated -2. So, if you had RC of 3, your First shot would be at no penalty, and the 2nd shot would be at -5.

For your Short Bursts it would be -2, -5, with RC3, it would be 0 and -2.

The wording is actually correct, and, as you can see by the example, the numbers still work out to the correct recoil penalty. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Maybe it is just semantics, though...

[Miri]

Considering my GM was going to let me put a Vindicator in a turret mount on a Manservent drone and ignore recoil penalties, I don't think he is worried about that option.

[KarmaInferno]

It is pretty trivial to eliminate recoil in this game, even if you're using the optional vehicle recoil rules.

So many stacking RC modifiers!

Well, so many stacking modifiers in general. Even starting characters can have pretty impressive primary dice pools while STILL being decently rounded in other areas.





-k

[Aerospider]

Actually, A Short Burst is -2, and a Long Bust is -6. There is no need for the word "additional," becasue it is not in addition to the already initiated -2. So, if you had RC of 3, your First shot would be at no penalty, and the 2nd shot would be at -5.

I'm not sure you've expressed this as you intended. If the long burst is at -6 and it is not in addition to the -2, then an RC of 3 would make it -3, no?

Personally I don't know why they didn't simply say 'One point of recoil per bullet after the first in the same phase'. Much more elegant.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Personally I don't know why they didn't simply say 'One point of recoil per bullet after the first in the same phase'. Much more elegant.

It's a weird and bad rules style that SR4 uses. Instead of making straightforward generic rules and guidelines and then go specific, instead make a bunch of specific rules and guidelines in a wordy but less communicative way.

As for the Sensor rules, ask your GM. There's a couple ways you can think it'll work, but they're either annoying, complex, or houseruled. Why they didn't just have a "Sensor Upgrade- Increase Sensor Rating By X" style mod, I have no idea.

[Udoshi]

isn't improving the Sensor rating as easy as replacing the standard sensors with a 600 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) rating 6 camera? Just don't put in a Rating 4 UWB radar, as your sensor suddenly drops to 5 -.-

Its possible to have a sensor of 6 with an UWB4 in the package, due to the magic of rounding.
Its easier to do on vehicles with bigger sensor capacity, as you can afford to bring up the average sensor above 5 with things like forward and rear facing cameras and microphones at rating 6.

And, uh, i'm fairly sure arsenal's updated sensor rules trumps 4a's stupid 'upgrade +2' rule, because Sensor is not part of a Device Rating. It SHOULD be, because then military vehicles would have decent sensors in them, but hey.

If the Response is the CPU and not the frame servos then why is Melee Defense based off Response?

For what its worth, there's also the option to use Evasive Driving.

Why Sensors and not Response? Because the drone's sensors are how it acquires targets, not its CPU.

While this is true, I would remind people that you don't HAVE to use Sensor Targeting. Gunnery is Agility linked, and you can use that if you so desire - or if your car is so old it doesn't have electronics. Per 4a 245, jumped in riggers use the Response of a drone for agility. So thats another option.

Also, Reality Filters actually really do benefit Riggers. +1 response is a big deal when its part of your defensive and offensive dice pool.

[HunterHerne]

Double post. However what I really want to say is below.

[HunterHerne]

Its possible to have a sensor of 6 with an UWB4 in the package, due to the magic of rounding.
Its easier to do on vehicles with bigger sensor capacity, as you can afford to bring up the average sensor above 5 with things like forward and rear facing cameras and microphones at rating 6.

And, uh, i'm fairly sure arsenal's updated sensor rules trumps 4a's stupid 'upgrade +2' rule, because Sensor is not part of a Device Rating. It SHOULD be, because then military vehicles would have decent sensors in them, but hey.




For what its worth, there's also the option to use Evasive Driving.



While this is true, I would remind people that you don't HAVE to use Sensor Targeting. Gunnery is Agility linked, and you can use that if you so desire - or if your car is so old it doesn't have electronics. Per 4a 245, jumped in riggers use the Response of a drone for agility. So thats another option.

Also, Reality Filters actually really do benefit Riggers. +1 response is a big deal when its part of your defensive and offensive dice pool.

I don't know. I only ever had one player attempt to bother with a reality filter, while hacking. Failed the test, and was impeded until he got his act together and shut off the program. Cost him time and stealth, though. Makes my opinion of the program less then stellar.

[Dakka Dakka]

Called shots – These can only be attempted with short bursts (or SA/SS).

By RAW only in BF but wide bursts as well, which is BS. If you want to use a long burst before/after you will have to switch firing modes.

[Udoshi]

I agree. However, I only ever had one player attempt to bother with a reality filter, while hacking. Failed the test, and was impeded until he got his act together and shut off the program. Cost him time and stealth, too.

While its pretty terrible on the offensive, I'm fairly sure you can instruct nodes on which you have admin access to not oppose the reality filter test.

You know, configuring your own servers to work with your software tools.

[DMiller]

Great dice pool, but AR won't let you shoot twice in one IP, or get 5 IPs.

I thought the use of Gunnery was a Complex Action... SR4 p160 lists under Complex Actions "Fire a Vehicle Weapon".

How can you shoot twice?

-D

[KarmaInferno]

And, uh, i'm fairly sure arsenal's updated sensor rules trumps 4a's stupid 'upgrade +2' rule, because Sensor is not part of a Device Rating. It SHOULD be, because then military vehicles would have decent sensors in them, but hey.

Sensor is not restricted to Current Rating +2. Only the four Matrix Attributes are.

Even then, there is the Modular Electronics modification in the SR4A Changes PDF that allows vehicles to exceed the Rating+2 restriction when upgrading those Matrix Attributes.

Frustratingly, the PDF implies that the ME modification is available for other devices besides vehicles, but then does not provide any rules to do this with.

I thought the use of Gunnery was a Complex Action... SR4 p160 lists under Complex Actions "Fire a Vehicle Weapon".

How can you shoot twice?

A lot of folks read this to only apply to Remote Command operation. Jumping In allows normal actions, and the drone can of course take normal actions if acting on it's own.



-k

[DMiller]

A lot of folks read this to only apply to Remote Command operation. Jumping In allows normal actions, and the drone can of course take normal actions if acting on it's own.

Ahh, thanks. So it's just one interpretation of the rules. We've played it that gunnery was a complex action no matter what. It helps balance out the drone army power scale that tends to happen with riggers. It's worked quite well for us. It does make the Sensor lock-on a little less useful as that takes a simple action, but it is still situationally useful.

-D

[Aerospider]

By RAW only in BF but wide bursts as well, which is BS. If you want to use a long burst before/after you will have to switch firing modes.

In full-auto mode you can fire short bursts, long bursts and full bursts. No need to change mode. SR4a p.154.

[Aerospider]

While this is true, I would remind people that you don't HAVE to use Sensor Targeting. Gunnery is Agility linked, and you can use that if you so desire - or if your car is so old it doesn't have electronics. Per 4a 245, jumped in riggers use the Response of a drone for agility. So thats another option.

That's only for manually-controlled gunnery. Jumping in makes it Gunnery + Sensors and remote control uses the Control program.

Now active targeting can be a very nice bonus if you've got a good Perception rating.

[Udoshi]

That's only for manually-controlled gunnery. Jumping in makes it Gunnery + Sensors and remote control uses the Control program.

Now active targeting can be a very nice bonus if you've got a good Perception rating.

I do not believe this is true. Rigging was a lot clearer in 4th, i think (among other things, a list/table of actions for riggers got cut), and before the 'common rolls' table was introduced.

The only reason you think its Gunnery+sensors is because the table says so, and because you CAN do it with active targeting. Nowhere in the rules does it FORCE you to use it. Active and Passive targeting are non-obligatory combat options, and nowhere does it force you to use them.

When you actually dig into the rules, rigging is covered by a bunch of Attribute Swapping. The whole core of the system remains intact, but it can be very confusing to know what your options are under any given circumstance unless you're very familiar with the rules.

In Matrix tests, the attribute portion of the test is replaced with a
program or Matrix attribute. For example, rather than using Gunnery
+ Agility to fire from an assault drone, you would use Gunnery +
Command if you were firing a mounted medium machine. All rules
that apply to attributes apply to programs or Matrix attributes instead.

Gunnery+ agility to fire, makes sense. Gunnery IS agility linked, of course. The example given of command is later backed up here:

The dice pool of any test you make using this action uses the rating of your Command
program in place of the attribute you would use along with the appropriate skill as normal.

So, if you're using command, it forms the attribute half of the dice pool. Good to know.

A drone controlled in this manner acts on the rigger’s Initiative—the rigger and the drone are treated as a single unit. Any tests aremade using the rigger’s skills and the drone’s attributes (substituting Response for Agility and Reaction and Sensor for Intuition).

But wait. We don't use Intuition+gunnery when jumped in. We use Agility + gunnery. Because we are rigging, Response is swapped for Agility, so we use Response+gunnery by default.

Furthermore, we have this option. Emphasis is mine.

Characters can use the vehicle’s Sensor Attribute to help with Gunnery.
They can do this by two means: passive targeting and active targeting.
Passive Targeting
In passive targeting, the vehicle’s Sensor attribute substitutes for Agility
(or Pilot) as the linked Attribute, so the attacker rolls Gunnery + Sensor.
The target’s Signature modifiers are also applied as a dice pool modifier.

More attribute swapping. Gosh, its so hard to keep some of this straight.

I think the burden of proof is on you, Aerospider, to show that you MUST use sensor+gunnery. Just because it is listed as such on the common roles for riggers table does not mean it is the only option.

[longbowrocks]

I thought the use of Gunnery was a Complex Action... SR4 p160 lists under Complex Actions "Fire a Vehicle Weapon".

How can you shoot twice?

-D

Vehicle weapons are the big Single Shot buggers in Arsenal. You take actions as normal when jumped into a drone, so a semi-auto weapon on your mount stays semi-auto.

Dang. Ninja'd. Kind of. I didn't read everything between here and there.

[Yerameyahu]

Vehicle weapons doesn't mean the big ones in Arsenal, here.

[DMiller]

So to confirm there seems to be two interpretations of the rules about Gunnery:

1. Gunnery = “Fire Vehicle Weapon” = Any vehicle mounted weapon is a complex action to fire in any mode (turning SA into SS, and making BF single burst only)
2. Gunnery = [Firearms Group] for jumped in riggers and can be used in any fire modes as per standard non-rigger rules
2a. This also applies to drone Pilots and Targeting Autosoft
2b. This leaves “remote piloted” (using the Command Program) looking at rule #1

Hmm, seems to me using rule #1 is much simpler, rather than having two different rules to cover the same situation. I guess our group will likely stick to the more strict interpretation.

Thanks all.

-D

[longbowrocks]

Vehicle weapons doesn't mean the big ones in Arsenal, here.

Then what does it mean?

[Yerameyahu]

Weapons on vehicles.

[longbowrocks]

For example an AK-97 on a gun port?

[Udoshi]

Weapon Mounts

[Yerameyahu]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's not that complicated. A gun port is just a hole you shoot out of.

[longbowrocks]

Even though firing a semi-auto weapon on a mount would be a simple action if you were using something other than remote control? For example, jumping in or letting the drone control itself.
"Controlling a drone is a Complex Action, even if the drone
would be performing a Simple Action such as firing a semi-automatic
weapon or using the Take Aim action."