[X] My Assistant

[LurkerOutThere]

A metahuman spellcaster can target anyone or anything
she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or bioenhancements
paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets, but
any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character’s
own visual senses—cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds,
etc.—cannot be used. Some spells can only be cast on targets that the
caster touches—these targets do not need to be seen, but the caster
must succeed in an unarmed attack to touch an unwilling target of
such a spell.

Visual only this kind of thing is pretty much why my sig is what it is.

[HunterHerne]

You're right. I should've known anyway, based on other things that are possible (Magesight goggles).

[Hound]

if you're going full power-player, and your GM doesn't do much with racism and such, then yeah going human is almost never worth it. The +1 edge is nice, but unless you're going to bring it up to 6, it's not really important. If you intend to use all of the stat bonuses that the metas get, then it's definitely worth it from a stats-per-point perspective.

I play humans almost exclusively, for a variety of reasons: my GMs usually enjoy playing up racism, I have a tendency to make mages and other mental-based characters, I like to try and respect the fluff (which says that humans are still the dominant meta by far) and most of my teammates commonly make non-humans.

[HunterHerne]

if you're going full power-player, and your GM doesn't do much with racism and such, then yeah going human is almost never worth it. The +1 edge is nice, but unless you're going to bring it up to 6, it's not really important. If you intend to use all of the stat bonuses that the metas get, then it's definitely worth it from a stats-per-point perspective.

I play humans almost exclusively, for a variety of reasons: my GMs usually enjoy playing up racism, I have a tendency to make mages and other mental-based characters, I like to try and respect the fluff (which says that humans are still the dominant meta by far) and most of my teammates commonly make non-humans.

I try to play up racism, but I also tend to create a lot of NPC`s that are metatypes. I do that partly because I like the metas, but also because it`s more likely to be down and out as a Troll or Ork. A lot of my influential NPCs are human or Elf, and Dwarves tend to get stuck in between somewhere.

That said, many of my players play either elves or humans, so most of my applied racism could be seen as poor-on-rich(er) violence. "Go away, Pinkies"

[Cain]

I've tried a couple of character types, and I always come back to humans. Why? Because they're solid performers all-around. Sure, Orks and Trolls get bonuses to strength and body, but they're equal to a human in Quickness. And Quickness is required for just about any combat skill. You can get away with a low strength quite easily in Shadowrun, and a higher Reaction cuts down the need for a higher Body.

While I can get some very extreme combat monsters out of orks and trolls, they can be taken down easily by well-designed humans. Humans also make decent mages as well, especially if you have an Intuition-linked tradition.

And then, there's Edge. A human with 6 Edge is nasty, 8 Edge is nearly unstoppable if the build is done right.

[Yerameyahu]

Agility.

But the point about Orks is that you basically *do* need that much Str and Bod for everyday running, so it's not really a problem. For some builds, sure.

[Irion]

And then, there's Edge. A human with 6 Edge is nasty, 8 Edge is nearly unstoppable if the build is done right.

Depends very much on how players regain edge...

[Irion]

And then, there's Edge. A human with 6 Edge is nasty, 8 Edge is nearly unstoppable if the build is done right.

Depends very much on how players regain edge...

[Ascalaphus]

The Strength is highly subjective. Sure, it's useful for melee-oriented characters, but otherwise it's minor. But the Body rating is important for Armor.

[Cain]

Agility.

I'm a grognard, it's Quickness, dammit! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Depends very much on how players regain edge...

Actually, it depends on how much the players spend. If you have 8 Edge, and are reasonably competent without it, you won't be using it any faster than other characters. That means when they run out, you've still got some left. Even if you dramatically slow down the Edge refresh rate, characters with lower Edge scores will run out first.

In my games, I refresh Edge at the start of every session (usually) and at the start of every story arc. I only award bonus Edge if the players do something extraordinary. That's right, the *players*, and not their characters. I run a high powered game, so tremendous critical successes aren't impressive enough. Gonzo stunts can get an Edge refresh, if they're amazing enough. Even with that, typically they'll go through 3-4 Edge per character in a story arc. The Edge 6 character almost always has Edge left over. When I played an Edge 8 character, there was only once when he didn't end the Missions module with at least two Edge points left.

Higher Edge is not only useful because it gives you more dice, it means you can use it more often. Slowing down the refresh rate actually hurts low-Edge characters more.

[Irion]

If you have 8 Edge, and are reasonably competent without it, you won't be using it any faster than other characters. That means when they run out, you've still got some left. Even if you dramatically slow down the Edge refresh rate, characters with lower Edge scores will run out first.

Well, but the orc will have a body of 6-8 while you only have a body of about 3 (since you spend around 100BP on edge).
First: You will be using the edge faster, since your overall dicepools are lower. (You are more often in need to spend a point of edge to soak or something)
Second: If you are out of edge you are likely to die.

Higher Edge is not only useful because it gives you more dice, it means you can use it more often. Slowing down the refresh rate actually hurts low-Edge characters more.

It really depends. If you only regain one point of edge each session the low edge(1-3) won't be hurt that much, while the high edge character take quite a hit.

If you regain all your edge after 3 sessions but nothing in between, the low edge characters will be fucked.
If you regain your edge every in game day, all characters will have it easy to survive but the high edge ones will be, lets say, superior.

[pbangarth]

Irion is right, I think, that if you use a high Edge to make up for other low stats, then it is not much help in the long run. I don't think that is how Edge should be used. If you use it to make a splash at just the right moment, it can be an amazing force multiplier, and be a game changer.

For example, in our home game a while back a critical moment came that boded ill for some of our team. My PC, who did not have Stunball at the time but has a high Edge, multicast three Stunbolts, each bolstered with the use of a point of Edge. All of us, GM included, were impressed with the results. We all agreed that it was silly(impossible really) to behave that way all the time, but it came at just the right moment to save the team some serious grief.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

In my current group we decided to have edge refresh just BEFORE the next run, but not any time in between. The result is mostly that high edge characters (we have two humans with 7 edge) have maybe 1-2 points left to use during downtime, which they can spend because they know they'll start again fresh. I find this to be a very nice arrangement.

Personally, if we refreshed every session, almost every character could put edge in every second roll, because we don't even roll that often. Also, I would have to have NPCs use edge a lot more, too, which is just more rolling.

The problem remains that humans could use a minor boost. Perhaps a +1 to an attribute of choice? After all, humans should be the most diverse metatype out there, since there are so many.

[pbangarth]

In my current group we decided to have edge refresh just BEFORE the next run, but not any time in between. The result is mostly that high edge characters (we have two humans with 7 edge) have maybe 1-2 points left to use during downtime, which they can spend because they know they'll start again fresh. I find this to be a very nice arrangement.

This is how we do it too, so the left-over Edge can be very helpful for acquiring difficult to find stuff or performing a difficult extended task in time.

[HunterHerne]

This is how we do it too, so the left-over Edge can be very helpful for acquiring difficult to find stuff or performing a difficult extended task in time.

I agree. Edge should be helpful, but it shouldn`t be a replacement for other stats.

[pbangarth]

My sense is that the 'edge' for being human has been greatly reduced in SR4 from earlier editions. The Karma Pool of earlier editions grew twice as fast for humans, so in the long run a human PC could do many more extraordinary stunts than the other PC sub-species.

[KarmaInferno]

Irion is right, I think, that if you use a high Edge to make up for other low stats, then it is not much help in the long run.

If a human has low stats, that's a problem with the chosen build, not with the metatype.

It's pretty darn trivial to get very impressive stats AND high Edge.




-k

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If a human has low stats, that's a problem with the chosen build, not with the metatype.

It's pretty darn trivial to get very impressive stats AND high Edge.

-k

Except that MOST Mr. Lucky BuildsI have come across have Piffle for Skills, and they use their Edge to make up for THAT.
It is a fine line. Cain's Original Mr. Lucky had 5 Skills. A Mr. Lucky at our table has 8 Skills. Mine had 15 Skills. I prefer Mine over Cain's because there were less things that I NEEDED to spend Edge on than Cain's Character had. Yes, Judicious Edge expenditure can get you a long way. But when either your Attributes or your Skills suffer, that Edge tends to evaporate quicker than a more Broad Character's Edge.

In the End, well, you play what you find fun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

Of course a MR. Lucky build has lower stats.
Darn it, that fucking obvious. You pay around 100 BP alone for Edge 8. There is not much left to go around.
(Yes, if you keep Edge 6 you might have some more points to throw around. But anyway: A human won't touch the soak pool of an orc.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Of course a MR. Lucky build has lower stats.
Darn it, that fucking obvious. You pay around 100 BP alone for Edge 8. There is not much left to go around.
(Yes, if you keep Edge 6 you might have some more points to throw around. But anyway: A human won't touch the soak pool of an orc.

Well, Cyber/Bio makes up a lot of room for Attributes... My Human Mr. Lucky has Physicals of 5/3/7/2. Exceptional in Body and Reaction, where they are needed for his concept. Slightly lower in Agility and Strength (Ran out of funds, but will be fixed upon first significant infusion of cash, and they were not as important) End result after about 50k in Funds will be 5/6/7/5, which is not insignificant, and costs absolutely 0 Karma.

But you're right. A human will likely not compete against a similar Ork Build. But that is the same regardless of the concept. The Ork's higher base physicals in Body and Strength see to that.

[Irion]

@Tymeaus
And how are the mental attributes? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
You said it yourself: If you want edge 8 you have to take cuts. (Be it skills, gear or attributes.)

With the human having a max edge of 8 it is quite balanced.
I have seen several house rules giving humans two points of bonus edge.
Thats asking for MR Lucky light (7) or MR Lucky Luke (9).

All I am saying is that the MR Lucky build is nice but not overpowered, unless edge regenerates very, very fast. Like I said, once per day and every point of edge is worth a freaking lot.

[KarmaInferno]

Yeah, Edge refresh has a lot to do with the effective power of Mr Lucky.

Over in Missions, Edge refreshes basically every day, as most Missions are self-contained and are designed to be played in a four-hour session. So it's VERY effective.




-k

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@Tymeaus
And how are the mental attributes? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
You said it yourself: If you want edge 8 you have to take cuts. (Be it skills, gear or attributes.)

Average Stats mental. I always start at average and work from there. Since the character is still young (16), his Charisma Suffered a bit (he has a 2). Otherwise, average.

With the human having a max edge of 8 it is quite balanced.
I have seen several house rules giving humans two points of bonus edge.
Thats asking for MR Lucky light (7) or MR Lucky Luke (9).

All I am saying is that the MR Lucky build is nice but not overpowered, unless edge regenerates very, very fast. Like I said, once per day and every point of edge is worth a freaking lot.

Agreed, Edge regeneration at Daily is crazy powerful, if you have High Edge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Glyph]

I agree. Edge should be helpful, but it shouldn`t be a replacement for other stats.

The whole point of an effective Mr. Lucky is to not need that high Edge most of the time. Generally, it is a character with one thing they have an 18-20 dice pool for, and enough skills to get by in other areas. The Edge only comes out when they suddenly need a good roll in something they are only passable in, or they need an overwhelming success in their specialty. Personally, I prefer humans with an Edge of 6, since those last two points of Edge cost 35 (the points) and 20 (the quality), or 55 points that could go to other areas. But you can certainly make a viable Mr. Lucky build - he will survive a campaign with a low Edge refresh rate, and be very powerful in a campaign with a high Edge refresh rate.

[Irion]

I agree, that edge 6 is quite ideal for a human.
Edge is (taken at high levels) one of the best attributes since it can be applyed to everything.