[X] My Assistant

[Sir_Psycho]

Personally, I like karmagen as an encouragement to generalize, and my solution for anything such as humans, or magicians (with skills) is to just throw in a few more points. Recently, I went with a 1000 point karmagen, and it looks like everyone got the character they wanted. There's a drone or two, a merc with a tonne of cyber, an ally spirit, a f4 power focus, some geneware, and some decent dice-pools all round, with a lot of areas covered, including knowledge skills. They also still took negative qualities that are character appropriate. Come to think of it, build-wise, they're all humans.

I find without the feeling that your character can't be built without some min/maxing, you can focus a little more on fleshing that character out.

[Glyph]

My question isn't why aren't you an ork. it's.. Why aren't you a Dwarf.
Dwarfs are awesome, unless you intend to get a natural 5+ reaction.

They make amazingly good riggers and hackers and streetsams.
Sure the 2 body for 25 BP isn't as nice at the 4 body for 20 bp. But dwarves get to have a 7 willpower.

Everyone has already touched upon the hit to augmented Reaction. I'll also add that you have a slower movement rate, and need gear specially made for you. All of this for a metatype that has a net gain of 5 BP, rather than 20 BP (as for orks), compared to a human. They make good hackers, full immersion riggers, and mages, but that's about it.

[Irion]

So basically we are saying orks get a lot of freebe.

I mean I hope nobody is really suggesting that a troll might be better than a human for close to every build?

Yes, orcs get a lot of bonis and they are about the same stature as a human, evading a lot of problems trolls are facing.

So yes, orks are mostly better than humans.

But here is the question: Is that really a problem?
If you use Karmagen the it is really minimal. So the orc might end up with 2 points of body and 1 point of strengh more than the human of the same build. Is this really that bad?

[Glyph]

You do realize that you're asking this question to the same forum that has had multiple multi-page threads about oni costing 25, rather than 20, points, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[UmaroVI]

But they need to pay more to be unique! Just like Fomori get a point break for being unique! It all totally makes sense, want some Kool-Aid?

[Grinder]

Perhaps part of it is that in your games, it seems to be much easier for glass-fragile PCs to always avoid getting shot at if they want to. If that's true, it does devalue Body a good deal and makes ork and troll less valuable. If you actually see 1 body mages played and not dying, I suppose humans might be a more sensible choice, but that's pretty different than everyone else's experience of shadowrun.

I think you missed my point about Schroedinger's Build. Here, let me try. You said you actually had an Intuition mage in your group who is a human, and he has sub-6 edge.

Does he have Charisma or Logic 5? Probably not; he doesn't get much of anything out of going that high, and if he does I would argue he's presumably doing so for fluff reasons, and not for effectiveness.

Does he have Body+Strength < 5? If so, he is throwing away stat points or build points. If not, well, like I said, I consider playing a 2 body, 2 strength mage to be a bit on the suicidal side but apparently your mileage varies on this.

Cain made it clear twice that he doesn't want to discuss character builds, so please be fair and don't tease him, ok?

[KarmaInferno]

As we had in a conversation about the Street Legends book, every rigger should have a decent reaction in case your asked to drive something you can't jump into. Now personally as a rigger dwarf a 4 is a respectable reaction especially since there are lots of reaction boosts out there.

Some runners are, um, physically incapable of driving vehicles.

<.<

>.>




-k

[Cain]

While I think we can calm and reasonable about discussing the builds, I can understand being gun-shy about it. So I'm just going to final wrap up of my general points. Orks get a hefty bonus for very little cost. If you're body+strength is at least 5 and you aren't (soft or hard) capping edge, logic, or charisma, you should be an ork or other non-human metatype. Since that covers a lot of character archetypes and builds, in many ways ork is the default shadowrunning race. You should be asking "why aren't I an ork?" when building a character. Thankfully, every metahuman race has at least an niche so there are (some common) cases where you'll want to be a human, elf, troll, or dwarf.

A big part of the reason ork is so good is that having a 4+ body is quite important. I'm surprised how little you take stock in it. Even the techno in our group who basically lives in a suit of military armor in a rigger cocoon in a Hussar (an 18 armor drone) has been caught out in the open from time to time. I mean at 1-2 body you're in danger of being killed by a wide bursting guy with an AR in one pass. You can get around this with cyberlimb armor, but raising your body helps a lot and not everyone is okay with cyberdiabetus. I guess if everyone and their dog always attacks the tank, that's fine, but even in MMOs you have to worry about aggro and stray dudes.

The strength I'm not really going to push to hard. Honestly it's just a nice feather to put in your cap. It's weird you don't run much in Shadowrun but whatever. It's more that you get it for free. It's more useful if you use softweave, but not everyone uses War!. Being subdued sucks and really bad if you're low strength, but it's not really much you do against that cheaply.

Body isn't as necessary as you might think. Reaction is more important, since it enables you to dodge, and humans are the same as orks when it comes to that. It's better to avoid damage than to soak it. You can also fight like a wimp: use cover, smoke, distractions, flash-bangs, and any of the hundred of other tricks to prevent getting hit in the first place.

When it comes to melee, there's simply no way a mage can hope to defend against a good melee-focused character. Or an otaku or rigger, for that matter. The melee adept is simply throwing too much dice to have a chance. So, you need to do other tricks to keep them off of you, like spirits and drones. In that case, the ork bonuses aren't going to do you any good, you may as well save the points for more magic goodies.

Now, a Body of 3 is useful, simply because it means an extra box of physical damage. But there's not much more benefit until you hit Body 5, and that's pushing you into tank-build territory. Humans aren't so good at that, but they make pretty decent speed sams, who rely on dodging rather than body when getting shot at.

[HunterHerne]

Body isn't as necessary as you might think. Reaction is more important, since it enables you to dodge, and humans are the same as orks when it comes to that. It's better to avoid damage than to soak it. You can also fight like a wimp: use cover, smoke, distractions, flash-bangs, and any of the hundred of other tricks to prevent getting hit in the first place.

When it comes to melee, there's simply no way a mage can hope to defend against a good melee-focused character. Or an otaku or rigger, for that matter. The melee adept is simply throwing too much dice to have a chance. So, you need to do other tricks to keep them off of you, like spirits and drones. In that case, the ork bonuses aren't going to do you any good, you may as well save the points for more magic goodies.

Now, a Body of 3 is useful, simply because it means an extra box of physical damage. But there's not much more benefit until you hit Body 5, and that's pushing you into tank-build territory. Humans aren't so good at that, but they make pretty decent speed sams, who rely on dodging rather than body when getting shot at.

That being said, even as a human Street Sam, a good body is helpful. You don't want a lucky shot to take you down, after all.

[Yerameyahu]

Obviously, you'd have high Reaction *and* decent Body.

[HunterHerne]

Obviously, you'd have high Reaction *and* decent Body.

Well, you know people. If no one says it, they are going to assume it wasn't intended at all.

[Irion]

You mostly do not need the body for getting shot at. You need it for getting a granade thrown in your direction.
Because if the situation is bad, you may end up with no possibility to really dodge the granade.
And the differance between body 3 and body 1 is a big one.
3 to 9 dices to soak with no special armor. But I agree that Body 5 is not such a big improvement, since you really would need to push it.
And the armor really making use of body 5 might not be suitable for the run you are doing.

To soly rely on doding is a possibility for an adept, true.
A mage needs a sustained spell to pull it off. But a rigger....

[Mäx]

You mostly do not need the body for getting shot at. You need it for getting a granade thrown in your direction.
Because if the situation is bad, you may end up with no possibility to really dodge the granade.

Why would you need to dodge a grenade, as long as you're the intended target it's very unlikely to end up anywhere near you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Irion]

@Mäx
In the open, yes.
In close quarters.....

[suoq]

Now, a Body of 3 is useful, simply because it means an extra box of physical damage. But there's not much more benefit until you hit Body 5

Body of 4 is required for FFBA (half-body suit) , PPP shin & forearm, and any of the 6/4 armor to avoid encumbrance. (chamelon suit, armor vest, lined coat, ulysses, and even at 5/3, actioneer). As far as armor goes it's a nice sweet spot, giving the player a large number of choices at any time.

Now if you're never getting shot at, yes, this isn't an issue.

[Shinobi Killfist]

How reaction fares compared to body for defense is fairly GM specific. Do the enemies you face have a dice pool such that you avoid shots or do you usually get hit, assuming your normal defensive fighting cover etc.? If you have a reasonable chance to avoid the damage reaction is generally superior, if you usually wont avoid the damage you need the body to take the hits. What strategies does your GM use with automatic weapons, does he prefer narrow or wide bursts? If your dodge pool is reduced to 0 or close to it most of the time when people are using automatics again body will seem more valuable.

[Rubic]

@Mäx
In the open, yes.
In close quarters.....

... HUGGY-TROLL SAYS BEST FRIENDS TIME!! *BOOM*

[Cain]

That being said, even as a human Street Sam, a good body is helpful. You don't want a lucky shot to take you down, after all.

Human street sam, yes. You're going to get shot at a lot more, so you can't rely on your reaction. But for a non-front-line combatant, it's better to avoid shots rather than worry about soaking them.

[Yerameyahu]

And I still think that's a false dilemma. You want to avoid as much as possible, and yet obviously, also, always, wear armor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

Oh, having armor is always a nice idea. But on the other hand, wearing all the armor you possibly can will get you into even more trouble. Running around in full SWAT armor means you *will* get shot at first. The primary combatants will draw the aggro, so they need to soak as well as dodge. The secondary combatants won't draw as much, so they can rely on a good Reaction and cover. Heck, if you're a decker, rigger, or otaku, you can sit back in the van and not draw any fire at all.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, clearly the 'phone it in' characters are a separate case. They can literally be quadriplegics and far away (and, ironically, they don't need Reaction either; bleh). I'm just saying that everyone (… else) can use Body 3 or 4, and even Strength 3.

It's not 'dodge or soak' (not for the tank, not for the ninja). It's not 'Reaction *or* Body', and most characters benefit from the Ork stats.

[KarmaInferno]

Oh, having armor is always a nice idea. But on the other hand, wearing all the armor you possibly can will get you into even more trouble. Running around in full SWAT armor means you *will* get shot at first.

It is entirely possible these days to have armor in the 16-18 range and still have it look more or less like civilian clothing.

Just sayin.



-k

[Mäx]

@Mäx
In the open, yes.
In close quarters.....

The scatter is same for both.
God damm those pesky randomly teleporting grenades (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cain]

Yes, clearly the 'phone it in' characters are a separate case. They can literally be quadriplegics and far away (and, ironically, they don't need Reaction either; bleh). I'm just saying that everyone (… else) can use Body 3 or 4, and even Strength 3.

It's not 'dodge or soak' (not for the tank, not for the ninja). It's not 'Reaction *or* Body', and most characters benefit from the Ork stats.

It's nice, but not as necessary as people think. Body 3 is sufficient for a secondary combatant, if you've got a decent Reaction and enough armor. You shouldn't be drawing fire anyways, you should be using cover and taking opportunity shots, while the sams and adepts charge the machine gun nest. A high Quickness, decent combat skill (so you can hit things when you need it) and a good Stealth skill to avoid drawing attention will save you more damage than a high Body.

Strength, IMO, is useless unless you plan on getting into melee. There's no encumbrance rules anymore, your armor is determined by your Body, and you don't need a lot of gear unless you're a serious combatant. Heck, if you want to get into melee, just get a decent Quickness and invest a few points in monofilament whip. Now strength doesn't matter, and you slice through armor like butter in melee. Strength 3 is useful if you don't want to be a wimp, but mages and others can get away with a strength of 2 or less, and I've made pistol sams with a strength of 2. It wasn't a problem.

[Medicineman]

Strength, IMO, is useless unless you plan on getting into melee.
with softweave
Strength has become a little bit more important
BOD 3 & STR 2 & softweaved Armored Jacket ftW

with a winning Dance
Medicineman