[X] My Assistant

[Cain]

Tactics is up to the players, not the GM. Adapting to the player tactics is a GM thing.

But honestly, anyone dumb enough to simply stand there and take it deserves what they get. Reaction is just as important as body and armor, because it also reduces the damage you take. Even the troll tank in my game has learned the value of cover, because sooner or later someone will show up with weapons that can hurt him. Mages shouldn't be exposing themselves that much anyway. Riggers and deckers can stay in the van. You also don't need the body bonus if you've got a good reaction, which is why elf and human shooters can take down orks without trouble.

If you're using things like cover, smoke, and magical Confusion whenever possible, you don't need to rely on your body to soak damage. You rely on not getting hit in the first place, which is a smarter bet. When I play mages, I tend to pack smoke grenades and flash-bangs, to keep enemy shooters from drawing a bead. Having extra body is nice, but it's not the be-all and end-all of Shadowrun combat. Honestly, extra Quickness is a smarter move, since it enables you to put enemies down faster and quicker. SR4.5 is a game of eggshells with hammers; the sooner you can take out the other eggshells, the less you have to fear from their hammers.

[suoq]

Tactics is up to the players, not the GM.

No. The player's tactics are up to the players. The NPCs tactics are up to the GM.

But honestly, anyone dumb enough to simply stand there and take it deserves what they get. Reaction is just as important as body and armor, because it also reduces the damage you take. Even the troll tank in my game has learned the value of cover, because sooner or later someone will show up with weapons that can hurt him.

No one. NOT A SINGLE PERSON is claiming reaction is unimportant. They're attempting to explain to you that, with proper tactics used by NPCs, characters will need body and armor.

Mages shouldn't be exposing themselves that much anyway.

Mages do not need to be exposed to get hit by indirect attacks.

Riggers and deckers can stay in the van.

Why is the van SAFE? Does the opposition not use detect hidden nodes, trace, etc? Do they never attempt to hack the van, block in the van, blow up the van? It is the tactics being used by the GM that makes the players ability to avoid combat possible.

You also don't need the body bonus if you've got a good reaction.

Players at your table don't. Other players are subject to tactics you choose not to use. You have chosen a playstyle that allows characters to play to their strengths and avoid their disadvantages. At your table, this is fine. But I do not believe based on this thread, that your playstyle is the norm.

[Cain]

Believe what you like. Fact is, SR4.5 is still eggshells with hammers. No matter how tough you are, you will go down to a good shot or two.

Yes, I encourage the use of cover, visibility modifiers, and other tricks to avoid being hit in the first place. That removes some of the need for a high Body. If your players aren't using cover, then your playstyle is basically "Standoff at High Noon", with everyone in the open, no terrain or lighting modifiers, just keep shooting until people fall down. That encourages high Body and armor. But to be honest, that's kinda boring: using terrain and vision to your advantage is not only smart, it's effective. If your playstyle means that people never get cover, never use smoke or vision mods, and basically becomes a game of who's tougher, then that dictates what builds you find effective. I use a variety of builds, and anyone dumb enough to stand in the open deserves what he gets.

(For the record: I've taught the troll tank several painful lessons about the benefits of cover. Even he's learned, and he's got nearly 30 soak dice.)

[Whipstitch]

Why is the van SAFE? Does the opposition not use detect hidden nodes, trace, etc? Do they never attempt to hack the van, block in the van, blow up the van?

Seriously, 3 more Body is like a fart in a hurricane in those situations. Getting past a blockade on foot is a tough sell even for Samurai, for god's sake. I like Body, I really do, and I love me some orks. I play them all the time. But from here, it seems to me you're saying "So, what happens if you meet someone who can beat you on your own turf AND surrounds you with mooks?" Obviously, the answer is "Probably lose." I mean, really, if some dude sticks his head in my van, I'm mostly hoping that my cocoon holds out while the smart tripod and my steel lynx do their level best to ventilate the poor shmuck. Mind you, I do think low Body will come up sooner or later--weird shit has a way of happening in Shadowrun and playing like you're shackled to your van has limitations of its own. But with that said, it's not like you're getting nothing out of the deal, either.

[Marvelous Marvin]

Humans are the best edge masters. The guys that really aren't good at anything really save being the best in the world when it counts. No other race can get to 8 edge, pure and simple. And with 8 edge that's 8 dice you get to add to any roll 8 times during a run.

And you can unlock that 8'th point of edge for less than the cost of taking any other metatype. The best part of the Human Metatype is that they can equally be any build equally well, including filling multiple roles at once.

I currently have a Edge Master/Way of the Speaker/Gunslinger/Face/Mr. Johnson (been playing him off and on for a few years now) that in our home campaign may be winning the 2076 Republican Primary for Governor of Seattle.

He's currently 37 points ahead of "Darth Brackhaven" in the Polls. Witch may be do to Brakehaven's arrest in a hotel room last night after his financial records went public exposing his intricate web shuffling money between his secret accounts, City Hall, the Corps, Organised Crime, and several Street Gangs (which has also connected him to a long string of murders and domestic terrorist attacks). I love bringing down the RINO's.

[Cain]

Why is the van SAFE? Does the opposition not use detect hidden nodes, trace, etc? Do they never attempt to hack the van, block in the van, blow up the van? It is the tactics being used by the GM that makes the players ability to avoid combat possible.

Forgot this one. The team rigger keeps moving, so using Detect Hidden Node on him is even more difficult. He keeps a low profile, and uses areal drones to make sure no one is sneaking up on him. The team mage sometimes even assigns a spirit to guard the van. Since the decker also operates out of the van, Trace is difficult. And honestly, if someone ever got into a position where they could blow up the van, two points of Body wouldn't make a whit of difference: they'd use a missile, and no amount of body or personal armor would help with that.

[Grinder]

Did the last 25+ postings lead to anything other then exchanging opinions?

[Cain]

Sorry. Point is, orks aren't better at everything. Humans are very effective characters, especially if you're not looking at a front-line combatant.

[Irion]

But honestly, anyone dumb enough to simply stand there and take it deserves what they get.

Yes, obviously.
But the body 4 guy with maxed out armor won't care about the security guard with personalized skill wires and Reflex recorder shooting with wide burst of Gel rounds at him. (For about 6 Stun)
Because HE WON'T take any damage. (Even with reaction 1)
The guy with reaction 6 and body 1 will go down crying.

On the other hand no armor in the world is helping you, if somebody shoots at you with some gausrifle or a sniper rifle with explosive or armor penetrating amunition.
It always depends on what the GM throws at you.
If you play Shadowshoot, yes reaction is more important. If you play Shadowrun body is getting more important.

If your team is always in the offence, attack dice pools get more important. If you are the ones returing fire (or even not shooting at all) defencive pools get more important.
(And yes, there is no problem in building a team focused on getting in and out without a firefight. They will of course be drek in a firefight. But well, this does not do much, if the GM is throwing out Cybercombies as a security response anyway (for a low karma team of course))

Everything about Character optimisation is GM dependend. (Some GMs will for example make it impossible for the hacker to operate out of the van. At some tables everything bigger than a micro drone is out of question. Etc.)
It really depends on the table.

[Cain]

If you're playing Shadowrun, then running is the most important word.

Honestly, even a low-skill security guard can take down a Body 4 ork, assuming the ork doesn't go for cover or otherwise tries to avoid the shot. Lightly armored trolls will go down to EX ammo and a SMG. It doesn't take much to down a shadowrunner, regardless of armor or body. That's why not getting hit is paramount. Humans may not have the body that an ork has, but they don't need it, if their build is done right.

As for not shooting, every team should be able to do that as an option. You can be good at combat and be good at talking your way out of trouble. Given the fact that the opposition can bring in more force than you can handle (if only by calling Lone Star), being able to talk your way out of a pinch is a needed skill.

[Korwin]

Humans are the best edge masters. The guys that really aren't good at anything really save being the best in the world when it counts. No other race can get to 8 edge, pure and simple. And with 8 edge that's 8 dice you get to add to any roll 8 times during a run.

Nitpick: Pixie's too

[Irion]

Nothing of this really matters.
Orks get 2 points of strengh and 3 points of body for 25 BP.
Humans get 1 point of Edge for 0 BP.
An ork is paying 35 BP for strength 3, body 4 and Edge 2.
A human is paying 70BP for strength 3, body 4 and Edge 2.
So lets get this straight: If your table is using the rules in the book, that edge is refreshed one point at a time, high edge is not helping much, since the regeneration of edge in independant.
So if you are not going for at least edge 6, the point of edge is worth nothing for a human.
If you roll a lot of dices, the edge is worth less.
If you are not able to always hide than the body is getting important.
If your GM is using the rules for carrying stuff, strengh 1 does not look that good, now. Does it?

So yes, if your edge refreshes completly, there are just a few rolls in between, strenght and body are not so important because of the style you play, yes under this circumstances a human is equal to an ork, and MR Edge is even better.

But you may construct a situation to the opposit too.

Honestly, even a low-skill security guard can take down a Body 4 ork, assuming the ork doesn't go for cover or otherwise tries to avoid the shot.

Depends on the security guard, the weapon and the ork.
If the security guard has only a base damage of 4 and no armor penetration and the ork got himself a trauma damper it does not look that good. (Thinking only about an armor of 8 points)

[Traul]

On the other hand no armor in the world is helping you, if somebody shoots at you with some gausrifle or a sniper rifle with explosive or armor penetrating amunition.

To be fait, Reaction is not helping here either since the shooter can almost be in another continent. When you see a Gauss rifle and it's not for sale, you should start wondering what you fucked up so badly and the answer is probably "took the pizza slice the GM wanted" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Grinder]

Irion, you don't get it, do you? To make it clear: you, Cain, suoq, TJ, and the rest isn't having a discussion here; you're just repeating your own opinions over and over again. We don't need that anymore. Nobody will "win" here by repeating his point over and over again.So please stop it before the tone becomes aggressive and/ or annoying.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Meh, I'm inclined to say that those opinions are directly related to whether humans are unDERpowered. Well...

The numbers really speak for themselves, so that's been done to death, too, and then there's really nothing left to discuss.

Now fixing humans is another question, but that again is very table dependant, and will hardly find a consensus, either.

[Grinder]

Meh, I'm inclined to say that those opinions are directly related to whether humans are unDERpowered. Well...

Yeah, that at leat.

The numbers really speak for themselves, so that's been done to death, too, and then there's really nothing left to discuss.

That's it. Repating one's opinion on the topic doesn't add any value to this thread, as no one is willing to really think about the opinion of the other posters.

[suoq]

- response deleted. The people I'd like to read the response should, in theory, still be able to. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

As usual, everyone is only looking at the pure numbers in a roleplaying game. I'm just tossing in my 2 nuyen really quick Grinder, futile though it may be.

Orks are discriminated against, heavily. Leaving out the stupid Orxploitation nonsense, which I mention mostly because it appears to me they are treated much worse than the blacks of 1970's America. So you get extra body and strength for a lessened cost? Okay, that's super, but you're now an Ork. All those humans you think you are better than? Most of them, at the very least, don't like you. You are a pariah, and I'm not just talking about the lowered Charisma cap. Trolls only have it mildly better because they are fragging huge and nobody wants to mess with them. At least I know that generally speaking, walking about in Seattle with my human character, I'm not going to get hassled or jumped by Humanis Policlub, given dirty looks by non-metas, or harrassed by law enforcement.

<slots credstick for 2 nuyen>

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I agree with X-Calibur on his above post.

The balancing factors for the Metatypes/Variants, Infected, Sentients and Changelings are the social drawbacks of the Shadowrun Universe. Unfortunately, these are not "Hard Numbers" that can be mechanically enforced (It is Fluff, not Mecahnics). At a table that downplays the Discrimination, Bigotry and Prejudices of Shadowrun, these races have fewer drawbacks than at a table that enforces the Social Fluff.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

I agree with X-Calibur on his above post.

The balancing factors for the Metatypes/Variants, Infected, Sentients and Changelings are the social drawbacks of the Shadowrun Universe. Unfortunately, these are not "Hard Numbers" that can be mechanically enforced (It is Fluff, not Mecahnics). At a table that downplays the Discrimination, Bigotry and Prejudices of Shadowrun, these races have fewer drawbacks than at a table that enforces the Social Fluff.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

DWO - Driving While Ork (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[Whipstitch]

Nothing of this really matters.
Orks get 2 points of strengh and 3 points of body for 25 BP.
Humans get 1 point of Edge for 0 BP.
An ork is paying 35 BP for strength 3, body 4 and Edge 2.
A human is paying 70BP for strength 3, body 4 and Edge 2.
So lets get this straight: If your table is using the rules in the book, that edge is refreshed one point at a time, high edge is not helping much, since the regeneration of edge in independant.
So if you are not going for at least edge 6, the point of edge is worth nothing for a human.
If you roll a lot of dices, the edge is worth less.
If you are not able to always hide than the body is getting important.
If your GM is using the rules for carrying stuff, strengh 1 does not look that good, now. Does it?

For the record, I don't agree with any of the stuff after "Let's get this straight." In the grand scheme of things, there's cheaper ways of accomplishing a lot of the things that strength and body do, so having a low natural strength or body isn't a big deal given the low cost of muscle augs--33 points for equivalent stats but less prejudice and higher Charisma and Edge caps is definitely a fair deal for Faces-- or gaining a second or third point of Strength or Body in play with karma. Further, having a high Edge attribute is useful given that rerolling misses is only useful if you have a decent dice pool to begin with. When dealing with weird outliers or situations that are outside of your expertise, a high Edge is demonstrably better than a low Edge, even with incremental refreshes since each use of Edge is calculated with your full attribute. If anything, I find high Edge less useful at tables where it is refreshed often.

Again, I actually like having a good body score but the absolute terms people keep trucking in is tiresome.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

DWO - Driving While Ork (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

Heh... Indeed... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[suoq]

As usual, everyone is only looking at the pure numbers in a roleplaying game.

We discussed racism earlier, so no, we're not ONLY looking at numbers. Please see http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...p;#entry1087692 for my reply to your point, since you appear to be claiming I never posted it in the first place.

"The Orcs got a thing they call Orc Pride. Humans got the numbers. Trolls don't even need knives. Makes you wonder who has the power, the Orcs, the Humans, or the corps in their towers". - Ice-D

[Shinobi Killfist]

As usual, everyone is only looking at the pure numbers in a roleplaying game. I'm just tossing in my 2 nuyen really quick Grinder, futile though it may be.

Orks are discriminated against, heavily. Leaving out the stupid Orxploitation nonsense, which I mention mostly because it appears to me they are treated much worse than the blacks of 1970's America. So you get extra body and strength for a lessened cost? Okay, that's super, but you're now an Ork. All those humans you think you are better than? Most of them, at the very least, don't like you. You are a pariah, and I'm not just talking about the lowered Charisma cap. Trolls only have it mildly better because they are fragging huge and nobody wants to mess with them. At least I know that generally speaking, walking about in Seattle with my human character, I'm not going to get hassled or jumped by Humanis Policlub, given dirty looks by non-metas, or harrassed by law enforcement.

<slots credstick for 2 nuyen>

As pointed out it was talked about. It is table dependent not only in if it occurs but who it occurs to. For example in one game I played in recently humans and elves had the most problems because of the places we normally ran/lived. We just dealt with orcs and trolls more than anyone else thanks to where things were happening and how the adventures were structured. I pretend SR4s Tir Tangerine(Tairngire) doesn't exist but a game set there has different racial pressures.

[UmaroVI]

It's really more accurate to say that you benefit from having a racially diverse group with more than one "Face." Our regular group has a Mr. Lucky variant human primary face / secondary street samurai, an elf technomancer/secondary face, and a troll mage/secondary face. Usually the human does the talking (because he has more dice) and one or both of the others provide teamwork, but sometimes (like when dealing with the Sons of Sauron) the troll does the talking, and other times (like when dealing with elf supremacists) the elf does the talking.