[X] My Assistant

[Cain]

That helps, but the fact is, a dryad face or pornomancer has the dice to overcome just about any penalty. Some of it depends on roleplay and cleverness, but a lot of it is having a huge dice pool and playing to it. For example, if a female dryad pornomancer wanted to seduce the Humanis goon into untying her, so they could have a quick tryst, she'd pull it off even with a racism penalty. And the Critical Success rules being what they are, she gets to narrate in whatever details she likes, so the guy would pass out afterwards, giving them a clean break.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

For example, if a female dryad pornomancer wanted to seduce the Humanis goon into untying her, so they could have a quick tryst, she'd pull it off even with a racism penalty. And the Critical Success rules being what they are, she gets to narrate in whatever details she likes, so the guy would pass out afterwards, giving them a clean break.

See, this is where you and I would disagree... Social Skills are not an "I Win" button, regardless of how many Dice you throw around. There are some things that some people just will not do, regardless of a situation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

See, this is where you and I would disagree... Social Skills are not an "I Win" button, regardless of how many Dice you throw around. There are some things that some people just will not do, regardless of a situation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This reminds me of a ridiculous b-movie sequel I dropped in on on TV once, supposedly to "John Carpenter's Vampires", which even had Jon Bon Jovi in it. So this group of hunters are in the wilderness, camping at a cave, and one of them (the braindead alibi black guy) is guarding the van, when a hot babe comes a long, and proceeds to give him a blowjob, which he obviously thinks it's a really good idea to go along with. I mean... what the bloody fuck? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[suoq]

if a female dryad pornomancer wanted to seduce the Humanis goon into untying her, so they could have a quick tryst, she'd pull it off even with a racism penalty.

The very act of a female dryad attempting to seduce a humanis goon while being tied up is likely to end... badly for the dryad.

Yes, she has a lot of dice. On the other hand, he's also likely to fail his willpower roll to resist, well, let's not go into any detail about what he's resisting. But this is definately one of those cases I would warn the player against using "Seduction".

I think of all the possible scenarios, this may be the one least appropriate for a public forum. The alternative to how your table would be run is... unpleasant.

[sabs]

It would probably end in a beating and the R word.
Though, he might untie her first, so .. it might lead to an opening.

[Mardrax]

Commanding Voice will likely prevent too nasty a result from the seduction.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Commanding Voice will likely prevent too nasty a result from the seduction.

The Effect of Commanding Voice lasts exactly 1 Action, no More... Don't really think it is going to make any difference in the above scenario.

[Mardrax]

The Effect of Commanding Voice lasts exactly 1 Action, no More... Don't really think it is going to make any difference in the above scenario.

Nothing prevents you from spamming it though. Just hope you have more IPs than the target. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[PoliteMan]

As usual, everyone is only looking at the pure numbers in a roleplaying game. I'm just tossing in my 2 nuyen really quick Grinder, futile though it may be.

Orks are discriminated against, heavily. Leaving out the stupid Orxploitation nonsense, which I mention mostly because it appears to me they are treated much worse than the blacks of 1970's America. So you get extra body and strength for a lessened cost? Okay, that's super, but you're now an Ork. All those humans you think you are better than? Most of them, at the very least, don't like you. You are a pariah, and I'm not just talking about the lowered Charisma cap. Trolls only have it mildly better because they are fragging huge and nobody wants to mess with them. At least I know that generally speaking, walking about in Seattle with my human character, I'm not going to get hassled or jumped by Humanis Policlub, given dirty looks by non-metas, or harrassed by law enforcement.

I'm sympathetic to this, I can just imagine some player arguing,

"Look, Ghouls are awesome. You get a ton of stat boosts for cheap and all that prejudice stuff is just fluff, there's no mechanic for it. And heck, if we run in Asamondo, all the other guys are going to be suffering that prejudice. I'm telling you man, why wouldn't you go ghoul?"

The problem is that racism generally goes over poorly at the table. Assuming you don't offend someone, and assuming the PC is okay with it, then everyone else has to sit back while the spotlight is on Troll. It's just not something I've seen at a lot of tables because there are very few people who want to roleplay a situation where they're a victim of racism. And if they do, and they want to roleplay it regularly, it's just kind of uncomfortable for everyone else.

[Mardrax]

Nothing prevents you from spamming it though. Just hope you have more IPs than the target. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Admittedly, there's the cumulative -2, but a proper leadermancer shouldn't have too much trouble making it to 15ish uses before racking up the penalties to a point where they become meaningful. Add in Heightened Concentration and Adept Centering for additional cheesey flavour. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Glyph]

Fantasy racism should exist, and be used when it adds to the game's atmosphere or enjoyment. Care should, of course, be used. But it has no business being used as a "balancing factor". Hey, your metatype gets a net bonus, so I'm going to go out of my way to make the game less fun for you. No. Just... no.

[Cain]

See, this is where you and I would disagree... Social Skills are not an "I Win" button, regardless of how many Dice you throw around. There are some things that some people just will not do, regardless of a situation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In this situation, I'd be inclined to give it to the player. The dryad in question only came up once in game, and the stories about that person are not fit for a public forum. However, a combination of roleplay and a disgusting dice pool counts for a lot, and should count for a lot, in any game. She portrayed the situation convincingly, thus opening the door for the roleplay and the dice roll. Sure, I probably wouldn't have let a troll use Intimidate in that same situation, regardless of dice pool. (And I have a house rule that you can use Strength instead of Charisma for Intimidate, so trolls are actually good at scaring people.)

Social skills aren't an auto win at my table, but they are very powerful. I'm forbidden from using Commanding Voice on my players ever again, after a Leadermancer got away from them for the third time.

[Critias]

Fantasy racism should exist, and be used when it adds to the game's atmosphere or enjoyment. Care should, of course, be used. But it has no business being used as a "balancing factor". Hey, your metatype gets a net bonus, so I'm going to go out of my way to make the game less fun for you. No. Just... no.

While I don't strongly disagree, I'd argue that as long as that's made clear in advance to folks wanting to play that (hypothetical) metatype, why not? I'm not necessarily saying that's the case with Orks and other core Shadowrun races...but the more exotic metavariants, for instance, are (in theory) partially balanced by racism, as are the Infected. If shouldn't ever be used to ambush a player character with a bait and switch (offering them a super awesome race, then only revealing to them that the super awesome race is reviled by all once gameplay has started)...but in cases where metaracism is a known factor, I don't see the issue.

If someone wants to play a fantasy ork because it's stronger and tougher than a fantasy human, knowing that the adventure's going to take place in human lands (and they'll face some trouble for it), why not? Or drow, or a human in an elf game, or a Viking outside of his home realms, or whatever? Folks who knowingly sign up for it in advance likely don't see it as "less fun," do they?

Hell, I live for it when a couple uppity round-ears mouth off to one of my Shadowrun PCs with talk about daisy-eaters, fairies, and keeblers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Glyph]

I think racism should be part of the overall quasi-dystopian atmosphere. Yeah, it can be fun, but citing it as a "balancing" factor gives off the wrong vibe to me. It feels like the GM is saying he feels compelled to make an ork's life harder to compensate for him getting those Body and Strength increases. Maybe I'm being too sensitive, after listening to all of the passive-aggressive GMs on the threads about negative qualities (you know, the ones who allow sensitive system, only to have your character kidnapped and forcibly implanted with cyberware in some contrived situation).

But honestly, I don't think racism is even supposed to be a balancing factor - it would be stated more explicitly, if that were truly the case. It's simply part of the overall noir atmosphere. I certainly don't think that GMs who don't play it up are cutting metatypes an unintended break or anything, as some people are saying.

[Cain]

Having had faced real-world racism (and recently, disability prejudice) I can safely say that it's a balancing act. Orks and trolls do need a mechanical penalty to offset their bonuses; trolls do have them, in the form of metahuman adjustment costs. Orks are less so, and I don't often see them, but I have made orks feel the squeeze of trying to fit into booths at restaurants and other made-for-human places. I've been known to inflict a small penalty for big orks trying to operate small equipment. Which is actually fair: my roommate is 6'6, 400 lbs, and sometimes does work as an auto mechanic. He has a lot of trouble working on small engines, because of his size.

Here's an example to consider. Thanks to the ADA, all public places have to be adjusted for people with disabilities. Now, how many of you have actually tried to push a wheelchair up a ramp? Or gimp up stairs in crutches? It's not as easy as it looks. The world simply isn't made for you if you're not a certain height. Orks should have to face that.

[Irion]

but the more exotic metavariants, for instance, are (in theory) partially balanced by racism, as are the Infected.

Thats so not true for the infected.
The infected go two directions:
First: Ignore.
Second: Kill the character.

I think this has been talked about here several times, and most agreed that if they would be staying in character most of their characters would shoot the infected character, just to be on the save side.
You do not work together with someone considering you dinner.

[Critias]

Thats so not true for the infected.
The infected go two directions:
First: Ignore.
Second: Kill the character.

I think this has been talked about here several times, and most agreed that if they would be staying in character most of their characters would shoot the infected character, just to be on the save side.
You do not work together with someone considering you dinner.

Uhh, yes. I'd say being considered a "shoot on sight" to quite a few NPCs (and even some PCs) would count as, y'know, something that's a bit of a balancer. In fact, I'd wager that quite a few Infected characters have never been made for just that very reason, which means it's balancing quite nicely, and like it should, in my opinion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Traul]

but the more exotic metavariants, for instance, are (in theory) partially balanced by racism, as are the Infected.

It is more rarity than racism, and it is stated out: all the weird folks get Distinctive Style for free.

[Cain]

It is more rarity than racism, and it is stated out: all the weird folks get Distinctive Style for free.

Distinctive Style is not the same as racism. Just because you stand out doesn't mean you face prejudice and hatred.

I know someone who is truly albino. He goes around with an Islamic woman's headwrap all the time, because even cloudy sunlight can cause severe burns. He's distinctive, and sometimes gets flak by idiots who think he's a muslim. But that's not the same thing as facing real prejudice and bigotry.

[Korwin]

For example, if a female dryad pornomancer wanted to seduce the Humanis goon into untying her, so they could have a quick tryst, she'd pull it off even with a racism penalty.

Bad example? Why untie her? If it was my NPC, he would'nt even try to resist. Maybe an check if he wants to invite an friend...

And the Critical Success rules being what they are, she gets to narrate in whatever details she likes, so the guy would pass out afterwards, giving them a clean break.

She has such an high Agi or Rea and Acrobatics (or Body and Endurance?), too?

But maybe, I should read the Critical Success rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cain]

Bad example? Why untie her? If it was my NPC, he would'nt even try to resist. Maybe an check if he wants to invite an friend...

It was the way the situation was presented. The roleplay was convincing, the dice pool was astronomical, so why screw over the player?

She has such an high Agi or Rea and Acrobatics (or Body and Endurance?), too?

But maybe, I should read the Critical Success rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

According to the critical success rule, the player gets to narrate in whatever cool details they like, and the GM cannot override them. Someone scoring an overwhelming success on a seduction test can fairly narrate in a lot of details not appropriate for a public forum. Saying the guy passed out is well within reason. Honestly, it could have been a lot more graphic than that.

[suoq]

It's interesting to read a page after denying that one's table style has anything to do with the balance they've experienced, how that same person has changed their table style to add in one-directional racism and extend the Size Customization rules (SR4A 310) past where they are in the books in order to achieve the balance they claimed was there.

Yes. If there is prejudice against orcs AND no reverse prejudice against humans and everything is sized for human comfort and less comfortable for elves and orcs and players can play to their strengths and avoid their weaknesses, then humans become not only a valid choice, but the preferred choice.

-----------

Can I request we find another example other than a tied up dryad pornomancer seducing a humanis goon before this crosses the "No sexually explicit or offensive material" line? Because it's really a choice between a bad porn movie and a snuff film and I'm not comfortable with either on a public forum.

Edit: Never mind. Too late.

[Traul]

Distinctive Style is not the same as racism.

Who said it is? Distinctive Style is the balancing factor that comes with the exotic types. Racism is not.

[Elfenlied]

Bad example? Why untie her? If it was my NPC, he would'nt even try to resist. Maybe an check if he wants to invite an friend...

Maybe she's trying to convince him that she give really good head, and for that, you need your hands free.


On a side note, I'm consindering disallowing "Human looking" for any of the non-standard metavariants. You want that free Ogre stomach? Here you go, but you'll keep your Shrek looks.

[Cain]

Who said it is? Distinctive Style is the balancing factor that comes with the exotic types. Racism is not.

Racism is supposedly part of the package. It's part of the game world, even if it doesn't have a mechanical factor. Distinctive Style really only comes into play when you're tracking the person down, so it's only a penalty when you've already messed up and people know you're responsible. Really, metavariants should get racism plus; try being a gay black man in a conservative area today. Or, in my case, being a minority male dating a white girl; you get all kinds of stares in even liberal neighborhoods.