[X] My Assistant

[KarmaInferno]

Ok, I have to jump on this, I apologise in advance:

Roleplaying and Rolling literally have nothing to do with one another. You cannot solve a mechanical problem with roleplaying, because roleplaying should never allow conflict resolution. Basically roleplaying just decides what conflicts you are going to end up with, because you roleplay what your character does, and what kind of tasks he wants to undertake, and what kind of trouble he ends up in. And then you need mechanics to resolve those conflicts. If you are doing anything else you're in GM-fiat land, or in "I always win" land.

And this is from a guy who played diceless freeform roleplaying for years. But guess what, it's a game without conflicts, because you literally always win, unless you want to lose. And if two PCs end up fighting each other you often end up in a flame war, because there is no satisfactory way of resolving conflicts.

Basically it's perfectly fine to have minimalist mechanics: Toss a coin, and either you or I win. But you need at least that.

My point is, you don't need uber stats to "win". You are right in that roleplay determines what conflicts you face. But it can also affect the difficulty of the conflicts.

With a little planning, in-game and out, even mediocre stats can be effective, or at worst "good enough".

Good stats mean that you can, in fact, murder everyone in the room in a fight.

Good roleplay can mean you can, in fact, murder everyone in the room before you even enter it.

Controlling what conflicts you encounter is sometimes a lot more effective than just relying on stats to win you through.

Or, sometimes, total lack of control. I recall a few times when playing a particular barbarian winning the day by roleplaying up his awesome levels of stupidity. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)



-k

[Rubic]

We're just talkin' 'bout Shaft, whose a Troll in Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I can dig it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Miri]

I would be very very careful with this, as it allows for some very nasty combos that aren't meant to be possible.

Are those quality combos better then or on par with some of the synergy you can get from the other metatypes?

[Apathy]

I think that part of the issue is that not all attributes are created equal. Orks and Trolls get lots of discounted strength, but so what? Strength is the least used stat. It's also the cheapest and easiest stat to augment. Just because they all cost the same to raise doesn't mean that they're all equally valuable.

[Irion]

Well, they should be, anyway.
(Thats why a lot of people changed the max. amount of armor from body*2 to str+body.

[stu_pie]

I think that part of the issue is that not all attributes are created equal. Orks and Trolls get lots of discounted strength, but so what? Strength is the least used stat. It's also the cheapest and easiest stat to augment. Just because they all cost the same to raise doesn't mean that they're all equally valuable.

Not true. I find most players who play trolls are playing street sams or adept, so strength is pretty handy. Though I do agree it is easiest to boast, but if you pick troll you start off with large amount and can boast it pretty high (and as you point out fairly cheaply). It also used for most the athletic skill group. I would not say it is the least used stat (but maybe that just in my game). Think all attributes have their uses and if your playing a troll then you most likely plan on beating someones head in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[pbangarth]

The most useful Attributes are the ones the GM makes most useful.

[Mäx]

Are those quality combos better then or on par with some of the synergy you can get from the other metatypes?

Well an adept who has a 60% essence discount for basic bioware and 10 for cultured can be pretty nasty.
As can a one who has a 50% essence discount for basic bioware and also follows a way giving discount on his adept powers.

Type-O System as an example becomes much more attractive when you can have 15B:s worth of other qualities too. instead of the normal 5BP:s.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Well an adept who has a 60% essence discount for basic bioware and 10 for cultured can be pretty nasty.
As can a one who has a 50% essence discount for basic bioware and also follows a way giving discount on his adept powers.

Type-O System as an example becomes much more attractive when you can have 15B:s worth of other qualities too. instead of the normal 5BP:s.

Adepts with higher attribute maximums are also nasty. For me the metatypes advantage isn't the slightly cheaper out of the gate costs though that helps, it is the long run they will always be superior benefits.

[HunterHerne]

Are those quality combos better then or on par with some of the synergy you can get from the other metatypes?

Type-O system+ Magician. I don't know just how powerful that is, but methinks, it might be something to check out.

Not true. I find most players who play trolls are playing street sams or adept, so strength is pretty handy. Though I do agree it is easiest to boast, but if you pick troll you start off with large amount and can boast it pretty high (and as you point out fairly cheaply). It also used for most the athletic skill group. I would not say it is the least used stat (but maybe that just in my game). Think all attributes have their uses and if your playing a troll then you most likely plan on beating someones head in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Also not true. I would be perfectly happy playing a Troll who is the team's face.

[Rubic]

Also not true. I would be perfectly happy playing a Troll who is the team's face.

I have that concept in the work up stage right now. Runner name Kavorkaman

[HunterHerne]

I have that concept in the work up stage right now. Runner name Kavorkaman

I did up my original Troll Face as an NPC for a "Fraud Investigations" firm that was going to hire the Runner team. They themselves were a runner team that advertised as something more legit, but had too many calls following another event in the game (not an effect of the PCs), so passed on the buck. His team included an ork female Rigger, who liked to follow the drones and clean up shotgun style if necessary; a human male Gun Bunny; and a female human Black Mage, who has a penchant for defensive-type spells.

[PoliteMan]

One of the things that annoys me about the "Orks save BPs" idea is it leads to lots of fat, out-of-shape orks. If you want to save BPs as an Ork, that means you look at Body 4/Strength 3 and say "good enough" and spend the rest of your BP elsewhere. And Body 4/ Strength 3 is fine for a human, by Orc standards it's the same as a Body 1/Strength 1 Human, a weakling with health issues. If you actually had an Orc with comparable stats to the average orc, you don't save BP, you're just a bit tougher and stronger than all the non-Trolls. However, I don't think many people go that way.

[KarmaInferno]

Type-O system+ Magician. I don't know just how powerful that is, but methinks, it might be something to check out.

I get the impression that Type O is as BP-expensive as it is specifically to PREVENT it from being combined with other high powered Qualities, like Magician or Technomancer.





-k

[LostProxy]

Technomancer is 5 BP isn't it? Would fit just fine.

[KarmaInferno]

Huh. I suppose so. So would Adept.

Maybe just the spellcasters were intended. or I could eb just reading too much into it.



-k

[LostProxy]

I'm a little dubious with Type O. Delta is nice and all but I've yet to run out of essence and I've never used anything above Alpha. Seems like quite the hefty investment for such returns. If you could at least buy the standard bioware second hand I could see the appeal but you can't even do that. You have to buy it full price and it does nothing for cultured bioware. I could think of a lot of more useful things to do with 30 BP.

[Yerameyahu]

Nothing wrong with out-of-shape Orks. Surely that's a more common average than the numeric one? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Glyph]

I agree. It could be useful for a highly optimized adept build, but most of the bioware a mage would want is cultured.

[HunterHerne]

I agree. It could be useful for a highly optimized adept build, but most of the bioware a mage would want is cultured.

Maybe. Just from SR4A, however, I could find uses for several bioware items, especially to a combat mage. Although, you are right, much of it would be very situational.

I do find myself wondering, however. How much would a mage benefit from the complete biological ultrasound system?

[LurkerOutThere]

Not at all, at least for spell casting, it's still not line of sight in my opinion. Just like mages with implanted UWB can't target with that.

If it's the implant i'm thinking of it's actually an adjustment to your hearing.

[HunterHerne]

Not at all, at least for spell casting, it's still not line of sight in my opinion. Just like mages with implanted UWB can't target with that.

If it's the implant i'm thinking of it's actually an adjustment to your hearing.

The way I understand how magic works, is that the sense isn't important (blind mages can still cast LOS spells, after all, even if they have to be using Astral perception), as long as they can pinpoint a target using natural senses.

Technological sensors don't work because the mage isn't actually making a connection naturally, but unlike most UWB, this wouldn't be an overlay on top of what you are seeing, it would be an "natural" understanding of the area.

[LurkerOutThere]

I will double check but I'm pretty sure your understanding is false. A blind mage HAS to astrally perceivce, that and vision replacement paid for with essence are the only loopholes.

Otherwise magic rules would not be Line Of Sight. They'd be line of hearing.

[HunterHerne]

I will double check but I'm pretty sure your understanding is false. A blind mage HAS to astrally perceivce, that and vision replacement paid for with essence are the only loopholes.

Otherwise magic rules would not be Line Of Sight. They'd be line of hearing.

Except Line of sight is the catch term for an unbroken line between the start point and the end point. Line of hearing would imply the spell could turn corners, as long as you could hear the target, which it can't do.

It's also stated that Astral Perception is not sight, either, that is just the most effective way of describing it.

[Irion]

You need line of sight and you have to "see" the target naturally.
The ONLY loophole are vision enhancements paid with essence. (Thats why cybereyes are so good for mages, since it enables them to reduce vision modifiers on spellcasting.