[X] My Assistant

[phlapjack77]

Ok, no worries (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think it's really just a case of play-style, then. I've been in groups where what you describe is the norm, and groups that only a few had 2+ IPs. Both pretty fun types of games, it just depends on whether combat drives the game or other things do.

[LurkerOutThere]

I assure you I'm not trolling you, I've genuinely never seen someone below 3 IPs out of chargen. Even something like a hacker/technomancer/rigger forced to work with their meat is using Jazz + Cram. The opposition does it too of course, IIRC even the description of Jazz in the book says it was developed so cops could inhale some and stand a chance against a Street Sam.

I just can't imagine people not going for more initiative passes or being surprised that every mage "follows the same formula", it's their only way to do it, the cyberware costs too much essence.

Am i suprised they follow the formula? No I am not. Do i feel that the formula is incorrrect when the mage is easily as fast as the street sammy? Yes.

All the previous editions it was, you can warp reality or you can move fast/often. Now thanks to easy peasy boost reflexes you can both warp reality and move fast and often. 1 spell pick replaces several points worth of essence isn't right with me and that's before we get into conversations about sustaining foci.

[Elfenlied]

Well, without Restricted Gear it's only 3 IPs, and without the reaction increase that normally accompanies IP boosters. So it's still among the worst of the IP enhancers.

But then, I've seen many posters resent the idea of magic in Shadowrun in general, so yeah.

[Ascalaphus]

I think the problem with the Increased Reflexes spell isn't that you can get IPs with a spell per se, but that you can get that 4th IP easier than all the other methods. All the implant versions are extremely expensive; getting it with the spell should be too.

[Elfenlied]

I personally believe Adepts get it the easiest way. 4 PP, and you're set.

With the spell, you take a -2 penalty on DPs, which IMO is a hefty tax.

[LurkerOutThere]

4PP is pretty heft for most adept builds that leaves you 1 or 2 left over max. They get those 4IP's without restricted gear or the like but it's most if not all of what their going to do. Mage can do the 4IP's as an afterthought to all their other wiz bang abilities.

-2 DP is nothing and can be mitigated with spirit services, sustaining foci or just putting up with the DP.

[Ascalaphus]

I personally believe Adepts get it the easiest way. 4 PP, and you're set.

Huh, I hadn't noticed they'd lowered the cost in SR4A.. this is more reasonable

With the spell, you take a -2 penalty on DPs, which IMO is a hefty tax.

That's what a Sustaining Focus is for.

[Elfenlied]

The sustaining foci available at chargen cap at F3, which is Ini+2 and 3 IP. To get the full 4 IP, you need Restricted Gear, which IMO makes it rather cost prohibitive.

[LurkerOutThere]

Oh darn you might have to limit yourself to 3IP's at chargen or give up 5 points. My heart bleeds for the mages.

[Elfenlied]

My point is that everyone (except maybe TMs) get 3 IPs for cheap out of the box, and 4 IPs with Restricted Gear.

But whatever, mages are supposed to be worse then everyone else, otherwise it's *gasps* MAGICRUN^TM

Oh, please spare me all the bickering about mages...

[LurkerOutThere]

Oh see now there is a place you are wrong and are now all offended, a sam getting 4 IP's uses up a sizable portion of their essence, a adept uses up a sizable portion of their power points. A magic uses....one spell slot out of how many possible? It takes a shocking level of self deception to pretend the costs are roughly equitable.


So yes it is an example of magic being flat out better at something then everyone, to state otherwise in the face of the evidence speaks to a shocking level of double think.

[Elfenlied]

Oh see now there is a place you are wrong and are now all offended, a sam getting 4 IP's uses up a sizable portion of their essence, a adept uses up a sizable portion of their power points. A magic uses....one spell slot out of how many possible? It takes a shocking level of self deception to pretend the costs are roughly equitable.


So yes it is an example of magic being flat out better at something then everyone, to state otherwise in the face of the evidence speaks to a shocking level of double think.

Well, the benefits are not the same. Everyone else gets +1 Reaction per point of IP enhancer, which greatly enhances survivability in fights. Also, the spell is the only IP enhancer that can be taken away from you mid-fight. A F3-4 spell is ridiculously easy to dispel.

So if you factor in the ease of detection (glowing on the astral plane), lack of reaction enhancement, and the fleeting nature of the spell itself, then yes, the costs are comparable.

[suoq]

A F3-4 spell is ridiculously easy to dispel.

By whom? None of the other types have counterspelling.

[Mäx]

Huh, I hadn't noticed they'd lowered the cost in SR4A.. this is more reasonable

And if your warriors way adept, you can get it for 3 PP or if your GM allows you to also geas it you get it for 2PP (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

Suoq: By the mage(s) that the oppositon has.

[Elfenlied]

By whom? None of the other types have counterspelling.

By the opposition? Who happen to have mages, or rented the service of a mage, who in turn lent them a bound Guardian or Guidance spirit?

And yes, not everyone has mages. But every serious opposition will have access to magic resources. Those who don't get curbstomped by the PCs anyway, regardless of available Ini passes.

[suoq]

And that's why Lurker calls it magicrun. The baseline assumption is that the opposition has mages because the runners have mages and the runners have mages because the opposition has mages.

Now that the horse has been raised from the dead and beaten until it's dead again, can we get on with the drug abuse?

[Elfenlied]

And that's why Lurker calls it magicrun. The baseline assumption is that the opposition has mages because the runners have mages and the runners have mages because the opposition has mages.

And why exactly is that bad? Magic is part of the game, deal with it. If you want to play pure Cyberpunk with SR rules, then don't call it SR. Call it Cyberrun! *sarcasm*

Now that the horse has been raised from the dead and beaten until it's dead again, can we get on with the drug abuse?

At the risk of violating that horse's corpse: What do people here think about the magic drugs? Stuff like Lil' Smoke, Eternal Flower or Rock lizard blood?

[LurkerOutThere]

By the opposition? Who happen to have mages, or rented the service of a mage, who in turn lent them a bound Guardian or Guidance spirit?

And yes, not everyone has mages. But every serious opposition will have access to magic resources. Those who don't get curbstomped by the PCs anyway, regardless of available Ini passes.

So wait your argument that increase reflexes is balanced is that the opposition that might use their action to fireball you might instead use it to dispel your increased reflexes?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I assure you I'm not trolling you, I've genuinely never seen someone below 3 IPs out of chargen. Even something like a hacker/technomancer/rigger forced to work with their meat is using Jazz + Cram. The opposition does it too of course, IIRC even the description of Jazz in the book says it was developed so cops could inhale some and stand a chance against a Street Sam.

I just can't imagine people not going for more initiative passes or being surprised that every mage "follows the same formula", it's their only way to do it, the cyberware costs too much essence.

The vast majority of characters, at our table, come out of Character Generation with only 2 IP's. The Occasional 3 IP's is not unheard of, and I have only seen 1 Character in play that started with 4 IP. Even the mages with Increased Reflexes usually only go for the Sustaining Focus at Force 3 (so 3 IP). Hell, there are some Mages that don't even start with the Spell, ort choose to not have the sustaining focus...

Not that IP's have not increased in play, of course, but it is apparently not as common as at other tables. *shrug*

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I personally believe Adepts get it the easiest way. 4 PP, and you're set.

With the spell, you take a -2 penalty on DPs, which IMO is a hefty tax.

As an Adept, you can get those 4 IP's for the whopping cost of only 2 PP, if you desire. Not all that hard to get, actually. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The sustaining foci available at chargen cap at F3, which is Ini+2 and 3 IP. To get the full 4 IP, you need Restricted Gear, which IMO makes it rather cost prohibitive.

Of course, you could always spend edge to remove the cap on Hits, at which point, the F3 Focus works just fine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Elfenlied]

So wait your argument that increase reflexes is balanced is that the opposition that might use their action to fireball you might instead use it to dispel your increased reflexes?

They're not going to use fireball. Not with the inane changes to Counterspelling vs Indirect Combat spells. It's not just counterspelling; Wards and BC seriously hamper the spell too. Also, even (certain) spirits can counterspell too.

My point is that Increase Reflexes is balanced to other common IP boosters by being obvious, not providing reaction boni, and counterable in combat.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Oh see now there is a place you are wrong and are now all offended, a sam getting 4 IP's uses up a sizable portion of their essence, a adept uses up a sizable portion of their power points. A magic uses....one spell slot out of how many possible? It takes a shocking level of self deception to pretend the costs are roughly equitable.


So yes it is an example of magic being flat out better at something then everyone, to state otherwise in the face of the evidence speaks to a shocking level of double think.

And yet the Street Sam can get 4 IP's for the Low Low Essence Cost of 1.5 Essence, Standard. Yes, it is 240,000 Nuyen, but so what. It is not that hard. Yes, I know, that is 53 BP, as compared to the Mages Minimum Required 37 BP for only 3 IP (A Magic of at least 2 (10 BP), the Magician Quality (15 BP), The cost of the Focus (6 BP), the Bonding Cost of the Focus (3), and the cost of the actual Spell (3); so a final cost of 37BP). But that is often irrelevant.

And as I mentioned Earlier, an Adept can get 3 or 4 IP for 2 PP (or slightly less) (5 BP for Adept, 10 BP for +1 to Magic and another 10 for the Quality to do so, for a total cost of 25 BP)...

In the end, it costs the same or less BP for the Non-Awakened Street Samurai to have 4 IP (and significantly Less for just 3 IP, only 7 BP) through Cyberware, than any of the Awakened Characters, Wired 3 is 100,000 Nuyen (20 BP) and the Restricted gear Quality is only 5 BP. Total Cost: 25 BP for the Wired (or 53 for the Synaptic Accelerator 3 w/Restricted Gear).

And a Juicer Sam can get 3 IP for less than 1 BP, and can continue to pay out for that ability for quite a while before that 1 BP is exhausted.

Not exactly sure what you are arguing here LurkerOutThere. The Awakened generally pay more for the ability to go fast than any other character.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

By whom? None of the other types have counterspelling.

By the Mage in your team. he does do counterspelling, right?
Or maybe one of his Spirits, there are spirits that are capable of such as well.
Or maybe he just entered a Background Count. Whoops, there goes at least one IP, possibly more.

[Yerameyahu]

… And those are why it's so trivially easy to *get* 4IP in the first place, especially using that godawful F1 sustaining + Edge trick. We're just lucky there are a *couple* of minor tradeoffs, instead of none. And, of course, the mages can always get Synaptics later.