Comlink modes and AR, You want rich AR, you have to be in Active Mode Options

[Redjack]

A PAN in Passive mode can be “seen” by other devices, but cannot be accessed by them without your approval. PANs in this mode will still show up as active networks. This mode is useful for operating in high-traffic areas, where advertising nets or spammers abound. Passive mode allows you to automatically filter out the noise, only alerting
you if specific pre-authorized nodes request access. This is the default mode for peripheral nodes and nexi—in the latter case access approval is required from a sysop or ensured by using an established account

Since AR is generated by all the nodes in range your com will only be getting AR from specific pre-authorized nodes, greatly reducing your experience. That said a comlink in hidden mode, and the user by extension, is completely unaware of AR in the area.

Thoughts?

[HunterHerne]

Since AR is generated by all the nodes in range your com will only be getting AR from specific pre-authorized nodes, greatly reducing your experience. That said a comlink in hidden mode, and the user by extension, is completely unaware of AR in the area.

Thoughts?

Sounds right. But also keep in mind, many of those areas with lotsof AR spam require you to have your Commlink appearing active at all times. Passive mode is like a transmitting sleep mode. You are still on, and if you try to access things, it'll switch to active mode again. At least, that is my interpretation.

[Yerameyahu]

Depends on what you mean by AR. Incoming AR information from unknown, yes, would be unavailable. However, that's just crap that Facebook profiles and virtual storefronts. You still have the 'Google Goggles'-style AR (3rd party Matrix info on what you see), maps, TacNet, translation, weather/temp/compass, email/chat/video, etc. … All the useful stuff.

[Redjack]

Depends on what you mean by AR. Incoming AR information from unknown, yes, would be unavailable. However, that's just crap that Facebook profiles and virtual storefronts. You still have the 'Google Goggles'-style AR (3rd party Matrix info on what you see), maps, TacNet, translation, weather/temp/compass, email/chat/video, etc. … All the useful stuff.

That's pretty much what I mean: AR not generated by a trusted node is not available. For example, in hidden mode you have access neither to service provider towers, nor the mesh network (though you could probably access a tacnet or team net)... so you have no matrix connection.

In passive mode, your access to AR is only from trusted nodes so the store fronts, city notices, restaurant menu, club AR, etc are all unavailable until.. All "anonymous" connections are rejected. Most of this AR is generated by just that, anonymous connections.

So you do not get "Google" in hidden and only if you are in mutual signal range of a provider tower or some other trusted relay when in passive mode.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, I'm assuming you have access to an MSP 'main tower' or something (via some simple repeater trickery, etc.). I'm also assuming the menus and things are worthless. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mardrax]

Way I've always handled it:
When your node A is running passively in Seattle
And your brother's node Z is in Hong Kong
His call isn't coming from node B through X that serve as repeaters of his traffic, it's coming from him. And since he's trusted, you're getting his call.

If it's AR experience you're worried about, you can set the mall node(s) or the node of the bar you're in as a trusted source without a hitch. Yes, you're missing all the Facebook spamming, and NERPS ads, but that's what you're running passively for. Or just maybe, missing out on the NERPS ads is a sacrifice you have to make to lose all the rest too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Redjack]

His call isn't coming from node B through X that serve as repeaters of his traffic, it's coming from him. And since he's trusted, you're getting his call.

But that's just it... it is coming from those that last point router and if you are not accepting connections from that last point router you can't get the call.

[LurkerOutThere]

Way I've always handled it:
When your node A is running passively in Seattle
And your brother's node Z is in Hong Kong
His call isn't coming from node B through X that serve as repeaters of his traffic, it's coming from him. And since he's trusted, you're getting his call.

Honestly that defies any kind of sense. If your in passive mode your not talking to the matrix how would the matrix know where to connect your call.

[Aerospider]

But that's just it... it is coming from those that last point router and if you are not accepting connections from that last point router you can't get the call.

That's not right. The call is originating from a permitted node (determined by access ID) and the nodes between are just forwarding the communication without interfering. Your link can tell the difference between a permitted call being relayed by a non-permitted node and a communication from the non-permitted node itself. Otherwise you're saying you would need to be in mutual signal range with that call from Hong Kong and for almost all privately-owned hardware that would never be the case.

[Thanee]

That's pretty much what I mean: AR not generated by a trusted node is not available. For example, in hidden mode you have access neither to service provider towers, nor the mesh network (though you could probably access a tacnet or team net)... so you have no matrix connection.

If you have no Matrix connection, you are offline, not hidden. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Aerospider]

That's pretty much what I mean: AR not generated by a trusted node is not available. For example, in hidden mode you have access neither to service provider towers, nor the mesh network (though you could probably access a tacnet or team net)... so you have no matrix connection.

In passive mode, your access to AR is only from trusted nodes so the store fronts, city notices, restaurant menu, club AR, etc are all unavailable until.. All "anonymous" connections are rejected. Most of this AR is generated by just that, anonymous connections.

So you do not get "Google" in hidden and only if you are in mutual signal range of a provider tower or some other trusted relay when in passive mode.

This is also not the case. Being in hidden mode makes your PAN invisible to other nodes, not the other way around. You are still aware of other nodes (so long as they themselves are not hidden) and can authorise them. So if you walk past a shop with some clever AR advertising and you're in hidden mode, you will not be disturbed or even alerted to the communication on offer, but there's nothing to stop you consciously checking that there is a broadcasting node and then authorising it if you're curious.

The only real difference between passive and hidden modes are that with the former other nodes (more pertinently, the users of other nodes) know your PAN is there and with the latter they don't. With either mode, if they aren't authorised they aren't getting through.

None of the modes affects your Matrix connection. You can still connect with any other node you fancy and your communication will be routed as and when necessary, though in doing so you do compromise the invisibility of hidden mode with respect to the node you're connecting to (but not to any routing nodes).

[hermit]

Since AR is generated by all the nodes in range your com will only be getting AR from specific pre-authorized nodes, greatly reducing your experience

That's like saying running AdBlock Plus and a decent popup blocker will greatly reduce your internet experience.

Passive allows you to run the AR applications you want, and only those. Active allows any RFID spam node to access your link and, well, spam you. Hidden is one more paranoid step and amounts to cookie-free, script blocking, porn surf mode internet. Still good for things but indeed a bit no-frills.

Routed signals have to work as if the trusted node sends them, in this scenario, for the entire WiFi Matrix to work.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Routed signals have to work as if the trusted node sends them, in this scenario, for the entire WiFi Matrix to work.

Indeed, there really is no other option. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Redjack]

Otherwise you're saying you would need to be in mutual signal range with that call from Hong Kong and for almost all privately-owned hardware that would never be the case.

No, I'm saying you must trust the next upstream routing node. In Active this is all nodes, in passive this is implicit trust and in hidden this is none.

If you have no Matrix connection, you are offline, not hidden. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

You are confusing your com being in hidden mode with not being on the matrix. These are two separate things. A modern day equivalent is not broadcasting your SSID in 802.11 networking. You can still communicate with a trusted node, just not be seen except by someone sniffing wireless traffic and determining the SSID's of that traffic.

None of the modes affects your Matrix connection. You can still connect with any other node you fancy and your communication will be routed as and when necessary, though in doing so you do compromise the invisibility of hidden mode with respect to the node you're connecting to (but not to any routing nodes).

I disagree. When you are in hidden mode no route can be generated to your com... and if I can generate a route to your com then you are not hidden. Hidden mode ONLY works in mutual signal range or its simply not hidden.

That's like saying running AdBlock Plus and a decent popup blocker will greatly reduce your internet experience.

No its not, please see my notes above.

Passive allows you to run the AR applications you want, and only those.

Exactly, but more precisely only AR from nodes you have authorized and until you authorize them, you are not aware of the AR they generate.

Active allows any RFID spam node to access your link and, well, spam you. Hidden is one more paranoid step and amounts to cookie-free, script blocking, porn surf mode internet. Still good for things but indeed a bit no-frills.

Routed signals have to work as if the trusted node sends them, in this scenario, for the entire WiFi Matrix to work.

IF a trusted node routes them to you.

[Mardrax]

Of course, one may also spoof signals to fake coming from that brother in Hong Kong, but that's your problem.
How does the Matrix know where you are? It doesn't, but your MSP most likely will. They'll most likely be a trusted source, since the comcode system doesn't know where you are, otherwise, and you indeed won't be able to receive any calls. As it stands though, regularly checking in with your nearest MSP tower should be a standard procedure, just like it is for your cellphone.

[Redjack]

Now continuing the hidden mode routing trickery conversation: If I set up, say a repeater drone and set it to spoof my ID and it was in active or passive (and connected to a trusted upstream either in active and on the mesh or a provider tower) and my com is hidden and in mutual signal range of said repeater then I have a matrix connection option.

Example: I am inside a corp facility and my repeater is outside and there is nothing blocking the wifi between the two, then I could feasibly get a matrix signal, send and receive calls, etc. I could see any of the AR inside the building though. In order to properly pull off this job, I need my hacker to put me on the corporate network with an active com that appears like it belongs. Now I can see and interact with the AR which will surely be present.

[Redjack]

Of course, one may also spoof signals to fake coming from that brother in Hong Kong, but that's your problem.
How does the Matrix know where you are? It doesn't, but your MSP most likely will. They'll most likely be a trusted source, since the comcode system doesn't know where you are, otherwise, and you indeed won't be able to receive any calls. As it stands though, regularly checking in with your nearest MSP tower should be a standard procedure, just like it is for your cellphone.

I agree with one caveat: When you disappear (hidden mode), your MSP will assume you've either gone offline or out of range.

[Mardrax]

IF a trusted node routes them to you.

Nonsense. A data signal gets a nice little identifier tagging it as comming from "Access ID X", which it keeps throughout its path to the receiver. As long as X is trusted, it doesn't matter wether or not Y and Z are middlemen passing the message on, since they don't alter the data.

If this wouldn't be the case, a) people couldn't Analyze your Access ID, and b) the entire concept of Access ID would be useless, as would the entire Matrix, as no one would ever be able to find your device on the 'way back'.

[Redjack]

Nonsense. A data signal gets a nice little identifier tagging it as comming from "Access ID X", which it keeps throughout its path to the receiver. As long as X is trusted, it doesn't matter wether or not Y and Z are middlemen passing the message on, since they don't alter the data.

If this wouldn't be the case, a) people couldn't Analyze your Access ID, and b) the entire concept of Access ID would be useless, as would the entire Matrix, as no one would ever be able to find your device on the 'way back'.

I agree, what you propose is nonsense. If you don't trust a connection from a potential router, you are not going to accept a connection from it even it is says "but I've got a message from your brother in Hong Kong...."

Also, you can't trust that the data isn't getting altered. Encryption will *mostly* solve that, but in Shadowrun, encryption is broken to allow such things to occur (ergo: this is by design for game flavor)

In Hidden mode you're right, there is no route back, which is why mutual signal range is required.
In Passive mode, the route is dynamic taking the last hop through a trusted node.

[Yerameyahu]

While I think the 'dedicated' repeater method is perfectly viable, it's also my understanding that the automagic mesh routing 'just works'. It's totally illogical and insecure, but somehow it just works, safely, and without anyone thinking about it. Yay SR. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Zaranthan]

IF a trusted node routes them to you.

You got your reality in my fantasy!

You're confusing how networking works in Real Life with how it is specifically stated to work in the wireless Matrix. All matrix nodes act as ad-hoc routers, passing traffic along to everything in range, this is not the same thing as connecting to those nodes. In Reality, you are trusting the relay node not to muck with your packets. In the Matrix, the transmission protocol prevents relay nodes from mucking with the traffic going through them. It is not explained how this works, it is simply stated whole-cloth as RAW.

[Redjack]

While I think the 'dedicated' repeater method is perfectly viable, it's also my understanding that the automagic mesh routing 'just works'. It's totally illogical and insecure, but somehow it just works, safely, and without anyone thinking about it. Yay SR. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

All rules are interpretable at all tables. For some of my players this is way too much detail. For my players who used to play Star Fleet battles and like to be really down in the weeds, this is the level they like. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Redjack]

It is not explained how this works, it is simply stated whole-cloth as RAW.

While I respect your right to interpret it as you may and run your table as you like, that is NOT RAW.

The “wireless mesh” part means that every device makes con-tact with every other device it can. “Ad-hoc” means that this is done on the fly. This is necessary because devices like vehicles and commlinks are often constantly moving , so the topology of the Matrix has to change over time in any given area. This creates a “cloud” of constant wireless traffic in any area with more than one device as each device passes connection information, data, messages, or just keeps track of neighboring devices.

RAW actually supports the definitions I provided above.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

All rules are interpretable at all tables. For some of my players this is way too much detail. For my players who used to play Star Fleet battles and like to be really down in the weeds, this is the level they like. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

*Shakes Head* Star Fleet Battles... Condolences. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)







That being said. I like Star Fleet Battles. Unfortunately, I have not been able to actually find a game for years upon years.

[Redjack]

That being said. I like Star Fleet Battles. Unfortunately, I have not been able to actually find a game for years upon years.

The fact that it takes 3+ hours for a frigate or smaller class battle using the original rules makes it too much of a time sync for me these days. I found my books in a crate in the basement the other day. They are still in that crate.