Comlink modes and AR, You want rich AR, you have to be in Active Mode Options

[suoq]

The quote in Unwired means that when you switch to Passive or Hidden, you damage the Matrix itself. So there is no reason for the corps to sell commlinks that can do it and to allow it in the commlink user licence agreement (and user licence agreements take a whole new meaning when the corp runs its own private police...)

SR4A

Using hidden mode is discouraged in some high-class social situations, where it is considered rude. In other areas, particularly tech-free zones or shadow establishments where privacy is expected, the opposite is true. Certain secure areas and high-class establishments prohibit users from operating in hidden mode, and will punish those doing so with expulsion, arrest, or worse.

Regardless of your particular vision of the Shadowrun dystopia, it's pretty clear that there are zones and establishments where hidden is the norm.

-------------------------------

I can't find anywhere where it says you need Stealth to go hidden (and a few places that imply that you don't). That being said, Stealth influences both Matrix Perception tests (p. 228) and Trace User attempts (p. 232) making it a good thing to have running constantly. Note that it doesn't affect "Find Hidden Node" tests which are seriously overpowered do to power creep. Since there appears to be no defense against detect hidden node, all the power creep is on the side of the hunter. Adding Stealth to the threshold for Detect Hidden seems like a reasonable house rule to me.

[KarmaInferno]

In a situation where you more or less throw your data packets into the Matrix and trust that the receiving party will eventually get it, wouldn't it be pointless to have one of the routing nodes alter the packets in an attempt to deceive the receiver?

All it would take is a second confirmation packet, traveling along a different path through the Matrix, for the receiver to realize that something is wrong. These kind of networks often use redundancy and confirmation protocols to make sure the data isn't corrupted by accident on the way to their destination, this should also apply to deliberate attempts to interfere with the data.

In order to pull it off, you'd have to intercept ALL the packets sent, no matter what route they are taking.

There's that old quote, "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." Would seem to tangentially apply here.


-k

[Traul]

Regardless of your particular vision of the Shadowrun dystopia, it's pretty clear that there are zones and establishments where hidden is the norm.

I do not question that. I question the corps allowing it to happen when it means they have to maintain more towers to compensate for the missing routers, they do it for free and the people who benefit from it do not even watch the ads.

Also note that Hidden would be the norm in shadow establishments even if it was illegal.

[suoq]

I do not question that. I question the corps allowing it to happen when it means they have to maintain more towers to compensate for the missing routers, they do it for free and the people who benefit from it do not even watch the ads.

Where are they allowing it to happen AND maintaining towers?

----------------------

The matrix uses packets?

[Traul]

Where are they allowing it to happen

They sell commlinks equiped with the option to turn Passive or Hidden.

AND maintaining towers?

There are no rules for loss of connectivity due to everyone switching to Hidden mode. So something has to keep the matrix working when the P2P system is broken. Who pays for the infrastructure?

Another thing: Passive is the default mode for peripherals and nexi. So every toaster is connected to the matrix, but routing only relies on commlinks? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Yes, the matrix uses packets:

When information is routed between devices, it is non-sequentially sliced into a number of pieces and sent to the recipient via multiple paths

[Yerameyahu]

I assume that the economics of maintaining towers, selling MSP services, and selling ads works out. It's not so crazy for the corps to pay for the infrastructure and allow some leechers, in order to reap the profits off those who do buys MSP services and/or see ads, or simply attract people to locations to buy things, and so on. See also: free wi-fi, Google, etc. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Traul]

But those who do buy MSP services and see ads do not need the infrastructure since the P2P matrix works fine for them. The infrastructure is installed only for the leechers.

[Mardrax]

Just because Passive mode it's an option doesn't mean everyone and their mom is doing it. In fact, since 75% of everyone and their mom doesn't know that much about how devices work, it's unlikely they ever switch modes at all. And then there's the fact it's unlikely that John Q Wageslave ever leaves areas that don't rely heavily on AR for all kinds of aids -which would make it a pain to manually have to set the node of every single store you ever visit as trusted- or just plain obligate Active mode.

In fact, I wouldn't even find it that unlikely for MSPs to reward the general populace for watching ads and buying associated products, giving them a discount on subscription, complimentary packs of NERPS, etc.

[Yerameyahu]

That doesn't make sense, Traul. Everyone uses the big towers, and the mesh, all the time.

[Traul]

Everyone uses the big towers, and the mesh, all the time.

I agree with that, but it is not what is written in Unwired:

Due to the mesh-network nature of the Matrix, every wireless node can function as a router and will do so if not in passive or hidden mode (see PAN modes, p. 211, SR4).

People can choose not to use the mesh. In seedy bars, there is no mesh at all.

The next sentence in the same paragraph contradicts itself and the core book:

Even peripheral nodes participate in the mesh network routing, though priority is given to standard nodes and nexi.

[Passive mode] is the default mode for peripheral nodes and nexi

So perpiherals and nexi route... but they don't because they are in Passive mode and Passive nodes don't route.

It seems that this whole paragraph is just bad retconning.

[Yerameyahu]

People can choose not to *contribute to* the mesh. That's not the same as 'use'. Everyone uses it.

[Redjack]

- MSP's don't want you to use the mesh. They want you to pay service fees to them to use their towers.
- Comlink manufacturers are tired of being restricted by the MSP's so they build mesh network support into their comlinks. It is an instant hit with a significant percentage of the population and the MSP's have to suck it up and live with it.
- MSP's are forced to adapt their business model, like it or not.
- Hidden mode is created to serve much the same function as airplane mode today. 60 years of advancement have attached some social etiquette to it.

Something like this seems very plausible to me...

[Mardrax]

Seedy bars will often have at least a single node of their own, which connects to the mesh with a few of the CCTV cameras around, or a GridGuide traffic light.

That peripherals are set to Passive by default doesn't mean that can't be changed, and when it is, they still route.

Higher Signal devices create less nodes in a path from A to B, making sure the signal gets to B as fast as possible. The towers are used by everyone. Leechers, however, woud have no problem finding Active nodes to route through elsewhere. Public areas outside barrens should be brimming with them.

[LurkerOutThere]

- MSP's don't want you to use the mesh. They want you to pay service fees to them to use their towers.
- Comlink manufacturers are tired of being restricted by the MSP's so they build mesh network support into their comlinks. It is an instant hit with a significant percentage of the population and the MSP's have to suck it up and live with it.

My big issue with scenario is in the shadowrun megacorporate dystopia these two entities are likely one and the same.

[KarmaInferno]

Eh, IBM never really wanted to be in the Personal Computer business, but they ran a PC division at a loss for decades.

Having mesh support is probably one of those features that is just expected by the consumers, and as such the manufacturers probably can't afford to drop it. Their competitors would jump all over it if they did, advertising that THEIR products have something that the mesh-less product does not.




-k

[Redjack]

My big issue with scenario is in the shadowrun megacorporate dystopia these two entities are likely one and the same.

But there are no monopolies and while megacorps rule, there are always upstarts trying to unseat the prime player.

[Traul]

That peripherals are set to Passive by default doesn't mean that can't be changed, and when it is, they still route.

So specific nodes have to be designated as routers and the matrix is not the ubiquitous mesh described in the core book. No need to call that the Matrix, just call it IPv6.

But there are no monopolies and while megacorps rule, there are always upstarts trying to unseat the prime player.

Not if it results in a net loss for the corps as a whole. That's why the corporate court exists: to ensure that the corporate feuds still preserve their greater common interests. Control over the matrix is one of them.

[LurkerOutThere]

This is not bagging on SR4/A, CGL Fanpro etc.

Just like the magic system needs a written down and explained system of how stuff works so does the tech/matrix system. it doesn't have to be accurate it doesn't have to be realistic, it just has to be consistant. Whenever SR5 comes around I would really like to see a top to bottom look at how the matrix works in general terms so stuff like this can be sorted out. Ideally they get a group of smart/lore/matrix savy people together (this excludes me) and they start almost from scratch. You want some people who know some IT theory but arn't going to feel bound by it.

For the record any modern day or near future RPG seems to have this problem. We had an accurate hacking exploration in Gurps, it got them raided by the FBI and honestly it wasn't very fun from a game play standpoint.

/sandbox off.

Addemdum: I think the SR4 matrix is pretty good, definitely best hacking system out there, it just needs an extra 10 percent to both streamline and make it work smoother.

[suoq]

Control over the matrix is one of them.

I'm not sure this is true.

I believe the corps desire the existence of the matrix.
I believe the corps understand that the ability to control the matrix includes the ability to destroy the matrix.
I believe the corps desire the non-destruction of the matrix by any means necessary.

To this end designing a matrix that can be controlled, in a world of sprites, technomancers, and things yet to be understood, is, in my opinion, NOT a good idea, and the ability to create ad-hoc networks, disconnect whole sections or disconnect from whole sections, and remain operational are all desired in support of those goals.

The issue I have with the whole "The corps control everything" meme is that the history is the history of the government and then the corps failing to control. Control, in fact, may take second place to a higher goal, that of stability, without which, control is fleeting.

---------------------------------

Lurker: Personally, I like Serbitar’s guide to the matrix v1.1. It's always appeared to be internally consistent, though I may have missed something.

[Traul]

I believe the corps desire the existence of the matrix.
I believe the corps understand that the ability to control the matrix includes the ability to destroy the matrix.
I believe the corps desire the non-destruction of the matrix by any means necessary.

I agree with that. This is the alternative explanation to Redjack's history: after the Crash 2.0, the corps wanted to avoid a Crash 3.0 so they settled for the most resilient structure possible: the mesh. From this point of view, excluding peripherals from the mesh structure makes no sense: most of them have fixed locations and 24 hour uptime, so they form a much more reliable infrastructure than individual commlinks. Users switching their router off at will also weakens the mesh, so the corps cannot allow it.

[LurkerOutThere]

Well again we go to a level of detail item. Your average toaster is likely set active all the time by default, it doesn't hurt it in 99% of situations to recieve and pass on traffic so it stays like that way. The passive users of the matrix likely won't do much damage in the long run especially if there's an incentive to stay active (ease of use,.

[Traul]

Your average toaster is likely set active all the time by default, it doesn't hurt it in 99% of situations to recieve and pass on traffic so it stays like that way.

That's not what is written in the core book: Passive is the default mode for peripherals.

[Mardrax]

That's not what is written in the core book: Passive is the default mode for peripherals.

Home nodes, however, should easily outclass the toaster in pretty much everything, including Signal, so the toaster can sit back and be a toaster, while the home node handles the routing well enough for the neighbour to pick up on it.
Devices are too ubiquitous for the thousands of toasters and soycaf makers and fridges to matter at all with their Signal 1. So they're turned Passive by default to prevent excessive snowballing of data.

[Blitz66]

Home nodes, however, should easily outclass the toaster in pretty much everything, including Signal, so the toaster can sit back and be a toaster, while the home node handles the routing well enough for the neighbour to pick up on it.
Devices are too ubiquitous for the thousands of toasters and soycaf makers and fridges to matter at all with their Signal 1. So they're turned Passive by default to prevent excessive snowballing of data.

I like this. Elegant. Stationary nodes in homes and businesses handle the bulk of all routing, because they're constant. PANs and vehicles and the like would have very low priority in routing, because by design they can't be expected to be in the same place for long. However, lacking other options, anything in Active mode will do the job. It's just not a big deal when somebody goes Hidden, because their commlink is unlikely to be a central fixture in local Matrix traffic.

[suoq]

Users switching their router off at will also weakens the mesh, so the corps cannot allow it.

The ability to disconnect from the mesh is not a weakness of the infrastructure, it's a strength.

True Story:

In 1993, there was a debate on the internet about anon.penet.fi (an early anonymizer). One of the people interested in shutting it down was Dick Dephew, an Usenet administrator. Dick wrote a program that would, every time it encountered a message from anon.penet.fi , send a forged delete message, thereby effectively removing anon.penet.fi from the net. The debate continued and at the last minute Dick semi-relented and changed the code to append the message instead of deleting it. He then went to bed.

I still remember watching the net die that night.

Here's the problem. When the software forged the append and sent it out, it then detected a new message (the same one IT forged) and appended it again, and again, and again. It swamped usenet as fast as it could and Dick's machine was one of the central hubs. Everything began to get buried under the load and the only way to save it was to shut it down and then reconnect to trusted servers (i.e. everyone else who had also already shut down). Attempts to get ahold of Dick that night failed and he had to be routed around, despite his machines being central to Usenet at the time.

The ability to turn a server or router to passive with only specific routing is invaluable because it provides a means of quarantining a threat. Active mode is great WHEN the matrix is healthy and all channels are "trusted", but passive mode and being able to pick and choose trusted servers and routers allow a matrix to exist around a threat. In order to be part of the mesh at all times, the commlinks need to have the same core mesh defenses as the rest of the infrastructure. The other alternative is to lose all commlinks when the infrastructure is threatened. Therefore commlinks either need to have passive and hidden modes or in case of threat, they get turned completely off.