SR4A and Gel Rounds, Did these really get -1 DV? |
SR4A and Gel Rounds, Did these really get -1 DV? |
Jul 18 2011, 12:04 AM
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#1
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 |
Due to the inability to search the forums for "gel" anything, the SR4A pdf says that gel ammo does -1 (stun) DV with +2 AP (vs. Impact).
Did the book go to print like that? It seems a rather big change from SR4 where gel did +2 DV, +2 AP. |
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Jul 18 2011, 12:09 AM
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#2
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
Yea, looks the same in both of my books as well, and really, it makes sense, to me. If you're using Gel rounds, you're really trying to NOT kill someone, so less damage makes sense.
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Jul 18 2011, 12:37 AM
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#3
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 |
Yea, looks the same in both of my books as well, and really, it makes sense, to me. If you're using Gel rounds, you're really trying to NOT kill someone, so less damage makes sense. On the other hand, they are now worse than SnS by a significant margin. 6(s) is better than -1 DV (stun). Oh, and you get the electrical effects. Oh, and half armor. |
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Jul 18 2011, 12:38 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 328 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,353 |
They changed it in one of the SR4 prints. For better or for worse, just use SnS for (nearly) everything.
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Jul 18 2011, 12:52 AM
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#5
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 |
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Jul 18 2011, 12:55 AM
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#6
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Immortal Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,358 Joined: 2-December 07 From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Member No.: 14,465 |
Just hope there's no reason that the person has health issues that electrical discharges can cause problems with.
"Well how the frag was I supposed to know he had a ten-year old cyberheart??? The damn Type-O hearts are in the bargain bin at the General Hospital!" |
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Jul 18 2011, 01:05 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 228 Joined: 30-July 09 Member No.: 17,450 |
I actually made a decent house ruling on that: SnS can only be bought for a shotgun (treated as slug ammo) due to size issues. My thinking is that it's a giant electro-conductive gel round with the miniaturized guts of a taser in it. The capacitive technology of the 2070s isn't advanced enough to put the guts of a taser into a smaller round, so gel rounds become the next best thing.
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Jul 18 2011, 01:10 AM
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#8
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
I actually made a decent house ruling on that: SnS can only be bought for a shotgun (treated as slug ammo) due to size issues. My thinking is that it's a giant electro-conductive gel round with the miniaturized guts of a taser in it. So, pretty much the Taser XREP. -k |
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Jul 18 2011, 01:10 AM
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#9
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 |
I actually made a decent house ruling on that: SnS can only be bought for a shotgun (treated as slug ammo) due to size issues. My thinking is that it's a giant electro-conductive gel round with the miniaturized guts of a taser in it. The capacitive technology of the 2070s isn't advanced enough to put the guts of a taser into a smaller round, so gel rounds become the next best thing. My GM is being rather anal about using the SR4A rules as they exist in the PDF, which is annoying, because I know some of them (like the OR table) are wrong. I think I'm going to buy a physical book, just to have the RIGHT rules. |
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Jul 18 2011, 01:18 AM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 23-September 10 Member No.: 19,064 |
What's wrong with the OR table in the SR4A pdf? [edit: If your copy has the values 1, 2, 4, 6+ (rather than 1, 2, 3, 5+), the latest SR4A pdf has fixed that].
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Jul 18 2011, 01:21 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 151 Joined: 18-February 10 Member No.: 18,170 |
So, pretty much the Taser XREP. Wow, nice find, K! And we have 60 years to miniaturize it to 9mm! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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Jul 18 2011, 01:34 AM
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#12
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 |
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Jul 18 2011, 02:01 AM
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#13
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Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 23-September 10 Member No.: 19,064 |
Also the PDF Bow rules are out of date. In what respect? If you mean it has a strength cap of 12 (rather than (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) and a damage cap of rating x 1.5 (rather than the lower of bow/arrow rating), then that's been fixed in the latest pdf as well. Was there something else wrong with bows? |
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Jul 18 2011, 02:21 AM
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#14
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 |
In what respect? If you mean it has a strength cap of 12 (rather than (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) and a damage cap of rating x 1.5 (rather than the lower of bow/arrow rating), then that's been fixed in the latest pdf as well. Was there something else wrong with bows? No, they nerfed bows TWICE. One in PDF 4a, one in print. Strength max of 8, arrows have a rating.(which is really dumb) |
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Jul 18 2011, 03:14 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 228 Joined: 30-July 09 Member No.: 17,450 |
Bingo. Realistically, I could see it being possible to invent super-capacitive materials in the next 60 years that would allow it to be possible to have one of those in a 9mm form factor, but I don't like the idea of a hand gun doing such retarded amounts of damage. Plus, it has the added benefit of allowing the adept with skills at poisons to use his skills to subdue the target(s) when they can't sneak a shotgun past security. |
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Jul 18 2011, 03:39 AM
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#16
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 |
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Jul 18 2011, 03:40 AM
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#17
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,803 Joined: 3-February 08 From: Finland Member No.: 15,628 |
On the other hand, they are now worse than SnS by a significant margin. 6(s) is better than -1 DV (stun). Oh, and you get the electrical effects. Oh, and half armor. Depends on what gun you use them in, from a BArret they do 8S AP -2 impact, witch is pretty nice. But the change isn't thaat big to SR4A, for example the first print of Arsenal tables lists them as -(stun) +2 impact, as does the Corebook errata version 1,8. Don't know why they decided to change it to -1 for the Anniversary edition, it's not even listed in the Changes Document(not that that is anything new) |
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Jul 18 2011, 03:47 AM
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#18
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,336 Joined: 24-February 08 From: Albuquerque, New Mexico Member No.: 15,706 |
I have been unable to locate said updated PDF. Go to where you purchased your PDF and download a new copy. The PDF was updated before the book went to print. Edit: The three significant changes are:
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Jul 18 2011, 04:08 AM
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#19
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 |
The PDF was updated before the book went to print. Yes, I know it was. Which is why I have to keep pointing it out to my GM. Anyway, I'll see if I can get an up to date PDF. Edit: Success. Gel ammo is still -1(s), +2 AP, which I agree with, but at least my group has the current book now. |
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Jul 18 2011, 02:53 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 328 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,353 |
Depends on what gun you use them in, from a BArret they do 8S AP -2 impact, witch is pretty nice. But the change isn't thaat big to SR4A, for example the first print of Arsenal tables lists them as -(stun) +2 impact, as does the Corebook errata version 1,8. Don't know why they decided to change it to -1 for the Anniversary edition, it's not even listed in the Changes Document(not that that is anything new) 8S AP -2 impact is nice, but that's as good or worse than literally any BF SnS firearm. Same DV, better AP (even with nonconductity on nearly any target you're actually worried about not being able to take down). More importantly, the electrical damage check always at least leaves a possibly stacking -2 to all rolls debuff and once in a blue moon takes a guy out of the fight right then. If you can't two shot your target (which might be the case the 8S range), debuffs are good. On gel rounds, I suspect the writers fairly realized that without careful stacking, your impact armor is going to be less than your ballistics. In a lot of cases going from AP 0 ballistics to AP +2 impact is not a meaningful change. So they wanted to have a "cost" to go to non-lethal measures. As for why SnS is still around then, there's some sort of blind spot writers seem to have. |
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Jul 19 2011, 07:25 PM
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#21
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Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,801 Joined: 2-September 09 From: Moscow, Russia Member No.: 17,589 |
Bingo. Realistically, I could see it being possible to invent super-capacitive materials in the next 60 years that would allow it to be possible to have one of those in a 9mm form factor, but I don't like the idea of a hand gun doing such retarded amounts of damage. Plus, it has the added benefit of allowing the adept with skills at poisons to use his skills to subdue the target(s) when they can't sneak a shotgun past security. Minding that you have commlinks working pretty much any amount of time on one charge, and brick-shaped LAVs capable of flight and bearing heavy weaponry without stabilization issues, I'd say Shadowrun tech is very far down the line of pressing a lot of energy into small amounts of space.So I just warn my players that if they use SnS, the opposition will do that, too. |
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Jul 19 2011, 07:28 PM
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#22
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
That's such an unpleasant metagame reaction, though. It's better to actually fix it, make them something that's a conditionally-useful, balanced tradeoff. Make them even more expensive, weaker, (sure, maybe shotgun-only), etc.
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Jul 19 2011, 07:52 PM
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#23
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,996 Joined: 1-June 10 Member No.: 18,649 |
comparing anything to SnS ammo is not fair. SnS ammo is the best ammo in the game. It's stupidly over powered. It's so overpowered it's probably one of the very first things a GM bans. Or stealth bans,by having all his guys have non-conductive on their armor.
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Jul 19 2011, 08:26 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 943 Joined: 24-January 04 From: MO Member No.: 6,014 |
That's such an unpleasant metagame reaction, though. It's better to actually fix it, make them something that's a conditionally-useful, balanced tradeoff. Make them even more expensive, weaker, (sure, maybe shotgun-only), etc. Honestly, it makes sense. If SnS worked so perfectly, and is perfectly accessible, NPCs would use as much as players. If this happens, then everyone would get non-conductive upgrades on their armor. And so they do. Any armored opponent in my games is about 90% likely to have rating 6 nonconductivity. Its not metagaming, it is just common sense. If for a cheap price (and it is really cheap) you can save yourself from getting pwned by all the Stick And Shock ammo running around. Its like when kevlar was invented, people started wearing it. If everyone is going to be shooting bullets, everyone expecting to get in a gun fight wears kevlar. Now if everyone brings SnS to a fight, everyone else is going to have rating 6 non-con. If every player can do it for low cost and availability, and every player DOES, then it makes sense that everyone would think that way. Also, in our game, we have houseruled that SnS ammo does damage based on your weapon. So a Heavy Pistol is 5S(e) instead of 6S(e), and a light pistol is only 4S(e). However Shotguns are a nice 7S(e). If you have a larger projectile, it should be able to pack more punch. If you have a smaller projectile, it should pack less punch. Just makes sense to me... |
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Jul 19 2011, 08:33 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 174 Joined: 2-July 11 Member No.: 32,605 |
Now if everyone brings SnS to a fight, everyone else is going to have rating 6 non-con. I love the sort of reasoning you use in this post, and use it myself. If something happens because of the rules, characters will notice this outcome eventually and adjust accordingly, based only on in-character observation and rational thought. But if everyone brings SnS to a fight, who is 'everyone else'? Why wouldn't the ones with non-conductive armor be the same as the ones who bring the electric bullets? They'd be the ones knowing to expect it, after all, and if that's everyone, there's not many people left to wear the armor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) |
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