[X] My Assistant

[Yerameyahu]

Haha, good for your player then! That's fast thinking in a pretty bad situation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I just know I hate it when I'm a player and the GM pulls out a 'problem' that I know my character wouldn't have. Like, if he never runs a red light. Cool.

(And I see he had a backup comm, so you weren't murdering him. More misunderstanding, I apologize.)

[Neko Asakami]

I apologize.

No worries and thanks for having the guts to do so. ^_^

[LurkerOutThere]

I don't think I'm being offensive. To break a critical item in a way that couldn't be expected by the players (again, without a specific and forewarned house rule) is *bad*. They expect guns to jam, and it's only transient.

I see (*now* that you've mentioned it) that you fixed it by giving him a battery, because commlink batteries also don't exist; without that bandaid, there'd be nothing he could have done for a lot longer than a pair of passes. It'd be equivalent to the gun exploding, not jamming. Or disabling their arm because they critical-glitched a throw. That's all I meant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The reason I don't agree with unexpected, critical punishments is because it's bad GM-ing, not the other way around.

Errr last i recall unexpected crap happens all the time in life, car crashes, laptop batteries left out int eh cold and being completely drained or left out in the heat and then flat exploding. Personally critical glitches are always bad and always have the potential to damage you or your gear, and as your profficiency with items and skills go up your less likely to have them, so I feel the system is mapped well after all.

[Fatum]

And of course, a phone call is not blowing your 'link up cause you don't need to make a roll for it in the absolute majority of cases, thus removing the potential for a glitch.
Things that require a roll may fail, however, and if something can fail, it can fail catastrophically.

[Yerameyahu]

Not my life, Lurker! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Seriously though, I'm just saying it seems like a strangely 'unrelated' glitch, and you can see Hida mentioning it above as such. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Analogy: a critical glitch on a vehicle test (including Gunnery!) is not likely to result in the gas tank being empty.

[LurkerOutThere]

It could though: You critically glitch your driving test you go over a a curb sttriking the gas tank on a park bench. In fairly short order your gas tank is empty. This does happen to people.

[Ascalaphus]

I'm with Yerameyahu on that.. it feels strange. Like you'd have the conversation:

GM: Your commlink's battery runs out.
Player: Huh? Well, I guess I replace it.
GM: Did you think to bring batteries?
Player: I didn't know they could run out.
GM: Nowhere does it say they don't.
Player: Nowhere does it say they do. Spare batteries aren't even in the equipment list. Anyway, if that stuff happens in the setting, then my professional hacker would have brought spare batteries along, and thought to replace them before the current batch was completely exhausted.
GM: But.. but..
Player: *throws dice at GM's head*

A gun jamming if it's handled roughly, that I can get. Seems a logical effect of how you were handling it.* But sudden power failure isn't really a normal result of using a computer.

*Though some of those guns, described as being far more reliable than normal guns, could be immune to that. Glitch-proofness could be a selling point for a gun with otherwise mediocre stats.

[LurkerOutThere]

Man, some of all have lived very sheltered lives (and i am somewht envious) if bad power has never affected your computing. I do agree with you that it would be an extremely dick move to presume that someone with the hardware skill didn't have some means on their person at most times to get their primary bread device back up and running again. We're talking about a complex action if that.

[Yerameyahu]

LurkerOutThere, that example is not 'running out of gas'. That's damage to the vehicle. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And the car, like the commlink, has an always-visible gas meter, with automatic alerts when it gets low-but-not-empty. I'm just saying, it's a less *expectable* and believable glitch effect than a gun jam, etc.

I agree on that: the result matters. If they can fix it *fast*, that's a big difference (the difference between a gun jam and a gunsplosion). But, as I said, it's now down to non-critical glitch territory. Honestly, your curb-breaks-gas-tank example is a *good* critical glitch, to me.

[LurkerOutThere]

LurkerOutThere, that example is not 'running out of gas'. That's damage to the vehicle. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And the car, like the commlink, has an always-visible gas meter, with automatic alerts when it gets low-but-not-empty. I'm just saying, it's a less *expectable* and believable glitch effect than a gun jam, etc.

Ok Yerameyahu what do you do for a living?

Without any rancor involved I'm an IT guy first in the military now int he civilian world. Battery failures and power failures are a major fact of life. Batteries can be defective and give a full reading right up until the point that they fail. Power can flicker suddenly and the UPS or the generators don't switch over properly. Otherwise smart people can forget to fill up before making the drive between fire bases and then need rescuing later. Maybe we're talking past each other but my point is bad/unexpected crap does happen in life. That's why it's called unexpected. Glitches and especially crit glitches seem like a good time to represent that.

Also the gas gauge on my truck is currently broken, i have to use the trip odometer. I've only failed to observe it once, you only need to. Comparatively I've only ever had a firearm jam on me once or tice and I've fired some crappy ammo

[suoq]

Player: Nowhere does it say they do. Spare batteries aren't even in the equipment list. Anyway, if that stuff happens in the setting, then my professional hacker would have brought spare batteries along, and thought to replace them before the current batch was completely exhausted.
GM: He did. Those are the ones in there now. Apparently they're duds, along with the rest of the spares he bought.

Fixed.

[suoq]

This is my wife's gas gauge: http://www.cars101.com/subaru/forester/for...09dashright.JPG
This is mine: http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/200...100265670_l.jpg

I have to look twice every time I drive her car because if I think she just filled her tank, chances are, it's empty.

[KarmaInferno]

My car's gas gauge works, it's just miscalibrated.

When it's reading at a quarter tank, it could actually be anywhere from a quarter full, to almost empty.

I've learned to refill the tank before it gets there.





-k

[Yerameyahu]

Lurker, I'm saying that (especially in 2070, remember?), you know how much gas/power you have. As you suggest, the *only* way this could happen is if the battery suddenly *breaks*, which is not the same thing as 'you forgot to charge it'. I'm saying that a glitch should not alter history, and the character didn't forget to charge his one critical piece of (hacker) gear that lasts for days. I'm also saying that power failure is an oddly tangential glitch, compared to something more directly related to whatever hacking action he was taking. I gave the example of a Gunnery vehicle test emptying the gas tank. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

Without any rancor involved I'm an IT guy first in the military now int he civilian world. Battery failures and power failures are a major fact of life. Batteries can be defective and give a full reading right up until the point that they fail. Power can flicker suddenly and the UPS or the generators don't switch over properly.

Having owned two laptops, and been around many more:

I have never seen someone lose power without knowing it was coming. With two exceptions:
1) Battery is non-functional and they're on AC power and someone tripped over the cord (and thus not applicable to this argument)
2) Battery comes unseated accidentally and loses connection (glitch level, as you just shove it back in, start back up, and keep going).

While batteries can sometimes give incorrect readings, there's another device that batteries have that can measure if the first device is working properly. I have no idea how the hell it works, just that it does. My first laptop's batteries still hold a charge (about an hour, tops) but the power level meter can no longer tell. If I use the button on the battery to get a reading (instead of looking at Windows) I have 5 lights. 5 green means I have full charge (*****), 1 green means I have no charge (*oooo). This is what I get now: three in an on-off-on-off pattern (*o*o*) that blink.

[KarmaInferno]

You are assuming that everyone checks the power levels regularly.

I can tell you this does not happen.





-k

[Yerameyahu]

And I'm telling you that it's 2070. Everything is connected, intelligent, and augmented reality. The *hacker* would always know if he had even the slightest battery issue. Our laptops today pop up little alerts as the battery even approaches low-ish.

[Mardrax]

If my life is even remotely reliant on my 'link's battery not dying on me, I'll be sure to have big flashy red AR signs blinking annoyingly at the edges of my field of vision when it's even coming close.

Also, a few days worth of battery power seems kind of low end for 2070s tech. Hell, the latest generation of smartphones runs for a day without a problem, as long as you don't have GPS running all the time. Hell, we have flashlights that run for two hours off a single capacitor and not even a two minute charge.

[Hida Tsuzua]

The problem is how common are "glitches" and how should we model them? For example we shouldn't have to make rolls just to walk down the hallway, but we've all tripped from time to time. You might commute to work for years without getting into a near accident. You might always keep your keys in your pocket, but you took them out of your pocket to use the can opener for the first time and now you're locked out of your apartment.

This is a common RPG issue. It's really easy to say "my character always checks his gas levels, his tire pressure, checks his transmission fluid, follows the suggested maintenance schedule, gets on his hands and knees and checks underneath the car every time he drives." Actually living that way and keeping to it 100% of the time is another issue. I generally follow that skill checks often cover this sort of thing and your ability to stick to it.

To be fair, I am a fan of the "describe how your character failed/succeeded that roll" post roll explanations typically favored by lighter RPGs. It lets RPGs cover a lot of small details that sometimes really do matter. It's quite post-hocy ("I made a mistake when cleaning my gun last time so it jams!") but it isn't like you were covering the gun cleaning anyways so it isn't retconny. And for all its (badly written) rules, shadowrun 4th is quite abstract and thus leads well to this style idea. If you can trust your players (which you might not be able to), you might want them to describe the glitch and what happens.

[KarmaInferno]

"You know, that last attack that bounced off you? You've just nowt realized that the thing that stopped the bullet was the battery pack on your gun's Smartlink."

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)




-k

[suoq]

Everything is connected, intelligent, and augmented reality.

This, I believe is WHY he wouldn't notice it. Everything else is competing for your attention and is you see the same thing EVERY day, your brain ignores it. It's no more noticed then signs in a storefront window that you can walk by and not even pay attention to.

Reality has enough stuff in it. Augment it and my brain just can't up with all the junk. And now you want me to notice something important in the midst of all the confusion? It's a car chase and in the middle of warning signs about driving too fast, people shooting at the car, cops telling us to pull over, you expect me to notice the warning light that says some ganger drained my power supply while we were pulling the job?

[KarmaInferno]

I ran an information booth at GenCon a few years ago. I kept getting the same question asked, over and over, "Where is X event located?" So, I made up a sign with 1 inch clearly readable block letters indicating Event X is in Room Y. I located it such that anyone approaching the booth would have it right at eye level in front of their face.

I still kept getting people asking where Event X was.

Also, working a summer job way back in high school. I got a lady angrily demanding where it said she couldn't park there when I asked her to move her vehicle.

I didn't say anything, I just pointed to the big sign that said "NO PARKING" that was right next to her.

People are stupid and do not notice stuff. Often to the point where it kills them. Do you realize just how many stupidity-related deaths there are every year?

Technology might have changed by 2070. I am not so sure people will.



-k

[LurkerOutThere]

People actually do die all the time because they failed to pay attention to gauges or other items they know their life is dependent on.

Throw in all the attention draws of combat, high stress, low sleep enviroments and I don't have a huge isssue witha critical glitch on a computing related test indicating the Hacker forgot to charge the battery last night. He might not ever fail by that agian, but that one time it's entirely plausible he did.

And now the value of discussion is done as we've both reached our points, we both have our reasons for feeling that way. Neither invalidates the other.

[sabs]

But But
You're wrong...

on the Internet!

How can we stop?

[Yerameyahu]

Because some alerts are more important than others, and people get skilled at dealing with AR. And by 'last night', it's 'every night and day for the last week', because of 2070 power densities. It's just an odd, 'post-hoc-y', and kind of bunnying glitch, that's all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)