[X] My Assistant

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, sabs, except those shouldn't affect spirits either.

[Hida Tsuzua]

That's a bug, not a feature, Hida Tsuzua. It's sad that the way to deal with (overpowered) spirits is (overpowered) taser ammo.

Oh it's totally an accident and spirits are their own bag of issues. But, SnS is one of the few things that keeps the magicrun at bay, even if does so in a finger in the dike sort of way. Messing up the already unbalanced firearm groups is a small price to pay. It's weird that you taze spirits, but if you're playing shadowrun you're wearing a duck on your head for +1/+1 armor anyways so it isn't that bad.

[suoq]

I'm not sure it's "stupidly overpowered".

Bond gets away with killing everyone because he's almost always in an isolated area surrounded by people who are, by definition, bad guys, simply because they're there.

Shadowrun frequently has the runners engaging in combat in the middle of a pile of wage slaves. The only thing keeping the non-mages* from becoming notorious mass murderers is Stick-n-Shock. Without S-n-S having the power level it has, there's no point in even entering combat as a non-mage unless you're willing to become public-enemy #1 AND a sitting duck for spirits.

If the runner is going to shoot 30 bullets from a pistol, what do you think they should be shooting and what's the likely outcome from those 30 shots?

-----

*Mages just choose to use stunball/bolt (depending on their chargen). No swapping clips or swapping weapons or any of that hassle.

[Draco18s]

You might be able to cure him of that by using a bow.
*depending on how old your pdf is.

My GM invented the Trollbow. 9.9
Or might as well have. We have a character in the party that does 13P base with a bow right now.
(I think I still have the kill-count though. My answer to all problems is a F7 stunbolt)

[sabs]

Suoq

Use Gel Rounds.
Use narcojet guns.
Engage in hand to hand with the guards and subdue them.
Use Taser guns.

There are options outside of SnS.

Yera, yeah, i suspect that Taser guns shouln't work on Spirits. If you want to kill spirits, you should need to use bigger guns. (or Indirect Spells)

[Draco18s]

(or Indirect Spells)

Indirect spells? Why not stunbolt?

[sabs]

Sure stunbolt works too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[suoq]

Gel Rounds = please use something that doesn't hurt my spirits.
narcojet guns = please use something that doesn't hurt my spirits.
Engage in hand to hand with the guards and subdue them = please use something that doesn't hurt my spirits
Taser guns = ok. these don't have any range and very limited ammo. You can use these while I kick your ass from LOS.

Stunbolt. Yeah, that works too. At long range. And works on people. It's everything Stick and shock wants to be and even comes in ball form. But yeah, we need to get rid of the Stick-n-Shock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[LurkerOutThere]

I have, and we're better for it.

[KarmaInferno]

In War! they introduces a spell that simply recharges electronics, which suggests that Commlink charges dont last for years.

Yes, but you missed my point. Battery life is largely irrelevant. Batteries in SR last as long as Plot.




-k

[sabs]

If someone unleashes a spirit into the middle of a bunch of wageslaves, they don't get to whine when said wageslaves die.
Stunbolt has the potential to knock the caster unconcious.
A force 6 stunbolt has a Drain of 4. That requires a 16 drain stat to rule of 4 it. And yes, you're likely to make the roll. But it is possible to fail it.

When the answer to every problem is, I use SnS.. then SnS is broken.

[LurkerOutThere]

Even if you fail the roll utterly you still only took 4 stun where as a whole bunch of opponents took at least 6 (likely).

[sabs]

sure and with SnS in a submachine gun on suppressive fire, I get the same result, except I have absolutely no chance of taking stun, OH and they probably will just fall to the ground twitching even if I don't stun em

[Mäx]

That's a bug, not a feature, Hida Tsuzua. It's sad that the way to deal with (overpowered) spirits is (overpowered) taser ammo.

Neither of those are really that overpowered.
Well okey the spirits are at a high enough force (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Draco18s]

If someone unleashes a spirit into the middle of a bunch of wageslaves, they don't get to whine when said wageslaves die.
Stunbolt has the potential to knock the caster unconcious.
A force 6 stunbolt has a Drain of 4. That requires a 16 drain stat to rule of 4 it. And yes, you're likely to make the roll. But it is possible to fail it.

When the answer to every problem is, I use SnS.. then SnS is broken.

A force 6 stun bolt does not have a drain of 4. 6/2 - 1 = 2.

[sabs]

yeah, I read too fast and picked up the Ball drain.
Course, the very first houserule I have when I run is that drain is now F and not F/2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) so

[Ascalaphus]

To me the escalation seems simple.

Defense forces (cops, guards, etc)
1) Wear the nonconductive FFBA.
2) Get the additional "clip" option and a smartgun.
3) Use the Stick-n-shock ammo "clip" first. If you get a few non-combatants with the S-n-S, then they can take a nap for awhile and stay out of things.
4) Anyone left standing deserves the most lethal ammo your employer will let you carry.

Intelligent bystanders will wear armor that protects vs death by ganger/shadowrunner/etc. Getting stunned is survivable and Tri-D has taught them that the penalty for wearing non-conductivity is death by superior firepower. Shows teach them that cops full auto the block with S-n-S to clear out the bystanders and then kill anyone left standing.

I like this. Training wageslaves to lie down and play dead as a survival tactic fits SR nicely (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

OTOH, I also like some of the other fixes (shotguns, more expensive, damage same as gun). It'd hurt the SnS-holdout pistol of doom, but meh. Those are supposed to be loaded with plastic bullets anyway.

Most importantly, limiting SnS makes tasers a serious proposition. And using tasers against spirits isn't all that bad; you don't have to enter melee combat, but it's not sniping either.

[X-Kalibur]

A force 6 stun bolt does not have a drain of 4. 6/2 - 1 = 2.

I was told there would be no math. However, it does nicely showcase why stunbolt is stupidly overpowered. Sure, you can do 6(s) damage with 1/2 impact with SnS. While you do have a decent chance to make the twitch like a tweaker going thru withdrawls, someone with a high body and some non-conductivity can shut it down fairly well.

Force 6 stunbolt, however? All you get is willpower if you don't have a counterspell-er around. You know, the stat no one can really get above a 6? And they have to resist all of 2 drain... which most casters can buy the hits for. Hell, throw it out at force 8, it's only 3 physical drain. And what happens to the poor target, who will never, ever, get more hits on willpower than the caster's sorcery pool? He's out like a light. Maybe even with bleed over into physical track.

[LurkerOutThere]

sure and with SnS in a submachine gun on suppressive fire, I get the same result, except I have absolutely no chance of taking stun, OH and they probably will just fall to the ground twitching even if I don't stun em

And if you suppressive fire that is all you are doing and if they stay in cover they are not affected at all.

[Draco18s]

I was told there would be no math. However, it does nicely showcase why stunbolt is stupidly overpowered. Sure, you can do 6(s) damage with 1/2 impact with SnS. While you do have a decent chance to make the twitch like a tweaker going thru withdrawls, someone with a high body and some non-conductivity can shut it down fairly well.

Force 6 stunbolt, however? All you get is willpower if you don't have a counterspell-er around. You know, the stat no one can really get above a 6? And they have to resist all of 2 drain... which most casters can buy the hits for. Hell, throw it out at force 8, it's only 3 physical drain. And what happens to the poor target, who will never, ever, get more hits on willpower than the caster's sorcery pool? He's out like a light. Maybe even with bleed over into physical track.

I think Stun Bolt is cheating, but I have been unable to think of a solution that would adequately fix the problem inherent within the magic system more broadly.

Spells that do stun should have a lower drain cost. Indirect vs. direct is questionable, although largely irrelevant (if we swap draincodes, then there'll be an indirect stun spell that becomes The Spell Of Choice).

Using F instead of F/2 only makes other spells even more disadvantageous to use (no one would ever cast Fireball, at F+5, for instance, and God forbid something like Mindnet, Extended at F+7 where force determines range and F1 is largely pointless (at magic 6 the characters would have a 60 meter range on their telepathy, which is neigh useless for many purposes--good scouting would need F3 or higher, depending on the target location)).

My GM however, has ruled "no multicasting" which is fair, as I'd only use it to dual or even triple cast F5+ stunbolts (at F7 I do knock people out, at F5 I can nearly fill stuntracks on three people with one complex action and take 3 DV worth of drain three times).

[sabs]

And if you suppressive fire that is all you are doing and if they stay in cover they are not affected at all.

I suppression fire with SnS...
1) the people I'm shooting at don't dive out of the way. They all take 6S(e) make a willpower check or fall down twitching, even if you make it, you're at -2 to everything you do.
2) they dive for cover/go prone. Woot! I'm not getting shot at this round.
3) Security Guard Charlie, my friend, whose standing next to me, sees that they've all dived for cover, and throws a flashbang grenade.
4) Profit!

[DamienKnight]

My GM invented the Trollbow. 9.9
Or might as well have. We have a character in the party that does 13P base with a bow right now.
(I think I still have the kill-count though. My answer to all problems is a F7 stunbolt)

I honestly dont understand the limitation on bow power. The power should only be limited by size... and if you are troll with reach, weilding an ungodly sized bow that basically fires small spears would be no big deal.

[CanRay]

The best way to incapacitate a target is to get them to do it themselves. Pornomancers in a bar are a good way.

But my group had this intricate and exceptional plan that included a StarBucks rip-off, the Street Doc's pharmaceutical knowledge, some high-end soykaff, and a really, really cheap ice cream truck that was quickly repainted.

[LurkerOutThere]

I suppression fire with SnS...
1) the people I'm shooting at don't dive out of the way. They all take 6S(e) make a willpower check or fall down twitching, even if you make it, you're at -2 to everything you do.
2) they dive for cover/go prone. Woot! I'm not getting shot at this round.
3) Security Guard Charlie, my friend, whose standing next to me, sees that they've all dived for cover, and throws a flashbang grenade.
4) Profit!

Going prone or going to cover doesn't prevent them from firing back, if your going to concoct a perfect scenario to try and prove your point yous hould understand the scneario your proposing.

The more I think about it I'm just not sure that there should be any drain code reduction for knocking people out rather then killing them. Froma game balance mechanic you can still walk up and stab them while their unconscious. From a world consistancy standpoint knocking people unconcious without actually hurting them is actually harder, why for mages is it easier?

[LurkerOutThere]

I honestly dont understand the limitation on bow power. The power should only be limited by size... and if you are troll with reach, weilding an ungodly sized bow that basically fires small spears would be no big deal.

I think a lot of people, myself included have a real issue with bows doing more damage then artillery pieces. Anything you can do with (meta)human powered torque you should be able to do better with chemistry or engineering. Otherwise we'd see tank mounted crossbows in the highly overrated real world, which we do not. The limitation on bow power is strictly a game balance caveat to keep it in line with things it logicly shouldn't be outpacing, and I'm ok with that.