[X] My Assistant

[pbangarth]

I think a lot of people, myself included have a real issue with bows doing more damage then artillery pieces.

There may be something to be said for limiting the power of bows, but this is overstating the case, somewhat. If your artillery is doing less damage than a spear, it's the artillery that is poorly statted, not the spear.

[Whipstitch]

Nah, I can't agree with that. Not when the "spears" were once serious threats to a MiG-67 Thunderbird. The armor system has serious problems at the high end and a lot of things stem from that but it's still pretty wacky to act as if the old-school trollbows weren't something of an outlier.

[hobgoblin]

I just remembered something, Gel rounds have a much bigger knockdown effect (yea, that rule, the one that everyone and their dog ignores) then other ammo...

[DamienKnight]

I liked the old SR3 rules that let you make a body roll against the knockdown.

In our group we noticed that highly armored characters were withstanding explosions that should knock them off their feet. We added to the knockdown rules that if the damage you were resisting exceeded TWICE your body (before resisting) then you were knocked down, regardless of how you are able to edge your way out of taking any damage.

This didnt apply to certain things with no kenetic energy, like shock weapons, but for everything else.

It really helped balance out the Free Possession Spirit character who knows how to layer armor. He may have no chance of actually taking any damage from the Burst Fire Shotgun Gel rounds, but if he doesnt dodge he will probably end up on his arse.

[sabs]

Going prone or going to cover doesn't prevent them from firing back, if your going to concoct a perfect scenario to try and prove your point yous hould understand the scneario your proposing.

The more I think about it I'm just not sure that there should be any drain code reduction for knocking people out rather then killing them. Froma game balance mechanic you can still walk up and stab them while their unconscious. From a world consistancy standpoint knocking people unconcious without actually hurting them is actually harder, why for mages is it easier?

If someone is under full cover they should not be able to shoot back. The prone issue, is irritating, because shooting at someone when you're prone because they're spraying bullets over your head really should give you some penalties.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The prone issue, is irritating, because shooting at someone when you're prone because they're spraying bullets over your head really should give you some penalties.

Why? I trained in the Corps for many years to do just that very thing (incomming and outgoing). Suppression fire is not accurate, pin-point, anti-personnel fire. It is designed to get the opponent to get there heads down or seek cover... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

Why? I trained in the Corps for many years to do just that very thing (incomming and outgoing). Suppression fire is not accurate, pin-point, anti-personnel fire. It is designed to get the opponent to get there heads down or seek cover... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And if sustained for too long a period of time makes you a nice, juicy target for a marksman.

[sabs]

My point exactly, you had to train to do it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My point exactly, you had to train to do it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Point taken... But do you not expect your Corporate and Security personnel to do so as well? And do you not expect that your Shadowrunners will do the same thing as well (or have done so in the past)? In the end, Prone provides enough protection to return fire under Suppression Fire. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

I think a -1 or -2 firing from prone, that can be mitigated by take aim actions would be fine (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

the answer of course, is to have 1 person do suppression fire, and then another to do wide bursts aimed at the guys who go prone.

[Ascalaphus]

If someone is under full cover they should not be able to shoot back. The prone issue, is irritating, because shooting at someone when you're prone because they're spraying bullets over your head really should give you some penalties.

IIRC, there is a listed penalty for firing while prone in the book.

[Draco18s]

I just remembered something, Gel rounds have a much bigger knockdown effect (yea, that rule, the one that everyone and their dog ignores) then other ammo...

The reason everyone and their dog ignores it is because either a) it never happens (trolltanks are never knocked over*) or b) characters never get to stand up (2 body characters taking 2 boxes of stun fall over).

When adding in Gel ammo (adds 2 to the "DV" or subtracts 2 from the target's Body--depends on what section of the rules you're reading, but it's the same), that means a Body 4 character gets pushed around like a rag doll every time they get shot.

*Unless they take 10 boxes from a single attack. Wait, aren't they dead at this point, anyway?

[Yerameyahu]

It is kinda the point, though.

[sabs]

Trolls have 8+body/2 boxes of physical.

So, a Body 8 troll, has 12 tracks.

[Draco18s]

Trolls have 8+body/2 boxes of physical.

So, a Body 8 troll, has 12 tracks.

And he can wear 16 points of ballistic armor. If he took 10 boxes of damage and rolled 24 dice to get there, so he was taking an 18P attack (give or take). That outright kills most people.

Whereas a body 1 person should fall over every time I give them a love tap (they don't).

[Fatum]

Okay, just a quick note on SnS. They're obviously mechanically the best ammo in the game, because a) they deal (e) damage b) they are capable of dealing the damage normally reserved for assault rifles when you shoot them out of a holdout. Just like in RL everyone tries to use the best equipment they can, the way sns is superior to everything else just means everyone who can afford it is using it - even the guards who want lethal force, since you can still finish the target off once he's down with sns; you just don't need any other ammo anymore.
Same goes for form-fitting armor, btw - it's so much mechanically better, there is just no reason for everyone not to wear it.

I see everyone using the same equipment as a problem; just like I see the need for any firearms heavier than holdouts eliminated to be a problem.

Basically, yeah, there are two solutions - either a ban, an outright one or a gentlemanly agreement; or making those somehow worse. I just don't like making things worse, I guess, so I chose the first option.

Now, in what comes to brick-shaped LAVs and that. The one in Rigger 2 (two it was, I believe) is literally shaped like a brick. Or a flying bus, if you will. There's just no way to keep things like that airborne without some seriously improved engine and power source efficiency ratios. I see the fact that recharging commlinks or implants (another group of devices unthinkable without some serious advances energy storage) is never mentioned in the books as a sign that the absolute majority of runs can be performed without caring about such nuisances. That is, equipment holds charge for at least several days on end.
Actually, there are pocket-sized batteries capable of powering a combat laser. When USSR tested its combat laser developments, whole hydroplant cascades' output was redirected to the installation. Sure, ok, SR lasers are much smaller in scale and use more advanced tech, most likely, but still, they're bound to require massive amounts of energy.
So technologically, I see no reason for sns not to exist; only metagaming reasons not to like the current ruleset for them, at least.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes. But, metagaming (read: balance) reasons are perfectly valid. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Fluff is just fluff.

[Fatum]

Yep, they are. That's why I said I'm pretty much banning them.
On a side note, I don't think Shadowrun is all that about balance; the archetypes are very different and do not compete that much; and you pretty much need all in the party anyway. For me, it's about the gaming staying interesting, and for that, necessarily, diverse. Everyone using the same armor and weapon set is just boring.

[Neko Asakami]

On a side note, I don't think Shadowrun is all that about balance; the archetypes are very different and do not compete that much; and you pretty much need all in the party anyway. For me, it's about the gaming staying interesting, and for that, necessarily, diverse. Everyone using the same armor and weapon set is just boring.

That's why only the guy carrying the shotgun gets SnS and commlinks run out of power: To keep things varied and interesting.

[Yerameyahu]

Except, they don't run out of power. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Not for days and days, at least, and only with extra house rules in place. To do that as a glitch effect is just cruel, bad GM-ing.

[Neko Asakami]

Calling it bad GMing just because you don't happen to agree with it is uncalled for. -_- I don't see how (in my game world) that is any different than a runner's gun jamming, both happened because of the runner's carelessness (Guns that are maintained properly don't jam unless you're using really cheap ammo). Besides, if you look back, I said "critical glitch." Players have the option to spend Edge to negate glitches, critical or otherwise. My player didn't and so he got nailed with something bad happening. The net effect was the same if he'd frozen his link: he had to restart it and launch all his programs again (albeit, he lost an extra pair of passes getting a spare battery out of his repair kit). What would you do to a hacker who had critically glitched?

[Yerameyahu]

I don't think I'm being offensive. To break a critical item in a way that couldn't be expected by the players (again, without a specific and forewarned house rule) is *bad*. They expect guns to jam, and it's only transient.

I see (*now* that you've mentioned it) that you fixed it by giving him a battery, because commlink batteries also don't exist; without that bandaid, there'd be nothing he could have done for a lot longer than a pair of passes. It'd be equivalent to the gun exploding, not jamming. Or disabling their arm because they critical-glitched a throw. That's all I meant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The reason I don't agree with unexpected, critical punishments is because it's bad GM-ing, not the other way around.

[KarmaInferno]

Nah, as long as the players understand beforehand that glitches can mean damn near anything going wrong in a minor way, and critical glitches mean they go wrong in a MAJOR way.

It's all about setting the expectations before you start.





-k

[Yerameyahu]

I guess. I feel like that's a very odd expectation, but as long as it's clear ahead of time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Personally, I wouldn't otherwise have expected an error making a phone call to make my computer *dead* (so it's good that battery happened to be there). I'd expect something phone-call-related to go wrong instead, wouldn't you? On a critical social glitch, your face doesn't melt. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

And on the critical/regular glitch angle, a 2-pass interruption is far too *weak* for a critical glitch, just like a gun jam is not a critical glitch effect. That's why I was confused.

[Neko Asakami]

I don't think I'm being offensive. To break a critical item in a way that couldn't be expected by the players (again, without a specific and forewarned house rule) is *bad*. They expect guns to jam, and it's only transient.

I see (*now* that you've mentioned it) that you fixed it by giving him a battery, because commlink batteries also don't exist; without that bandaid, there'd be nothing he could have done for a lot longer than a pair of passes. It'd be equivalent to the gun exploding, not jamming. That's all I meant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The reason I don't agree with unexpected, critical punishments is because it's bad GM-ing, not the other way around.

Okay, fair enough. I'm actually really the same way, I like to try and make glitches logical for the situation (other than when it's really funny, of course). My players expect commlinks to crash, programs to freeze, faces to get drinks poured in their laps, the rigger to get pulled over by Knight Errant because he blew a stop sign tailing their quarry, things like that. I've always hated the "your gun/sword/knife/spork gets jammed in your holster" type of glitch. *That* is bad GMing to me.

And to be perfectly honest, I didn't actually give him the patch; he thought it up himself. I was expecting him to have to switch to his backup 'link, but he said "I reach into my repair kit and pull out a spare battery." Rather than being a dick and saying that it wasn't in there because most techs don't carry around spare AAs in their repair kits (which is really true, if you think about it), I let him have it for the creative thinking. That, and to be perfectly honest, I don't mind springing random things that they didn't expect on my players. Lord knows they do it to me often enough....

edited to respond to posts that posted while I was posting (so I can meme in my meme while I meme): It wasn't a 2 pass problem, it was something like 3 rounds because he had to completely reboot his link in addition to finding the battery. And yes, it might seem odd if you think about it in terms of "a phone call kills my computer," but thinking of it in terms of "the hacker not noticing the little flashing battery icon while dealing with IC," it's suddenly a lot clearer. And like I said above, my players expect this of me, like I expect them to grab the little-but-heavy candy dish that's on every secretary's desk and use it to knock out a guard. I didn't specifically say it was there, but by all rights and reason, why shouldn't it be? It's a give-and-take relationship I have with my players.