Mundane Low-Augumented Character, Seeking character creation advice Options

[Smirnov]

Good Day!

I'm aiming to create a mundane security/weapons specialist with as little augmentations as possible, and right now I'm in a desperate need of an advice from more experienced players. Is this lind of the character even has the right to live or lacking additional IPs from either magic or augmentation, he will severely lack in effectiveness? (That's my major consern right now as my personal experience says that IPs rule the battlefield).
What are the options for such character if there are any?

Thanks in advance.

[LurkerOutThere]

Well the game system by design iencourages people to go magic or tech as ther'es really little inducement to do neither (outside of roleplay which is reason enough but not setting correct). You can squeeze a couple IP's out of drugs. I have a character who is using a datajack (or blech, trodes) plus a cheap comlink with an agent. Installed on it. The agent responds to simple phrases (which is a free action) and triggers the autoinjectors in the characters clothing for Cram and Jazz. Just be prepared to pass some addiction tests.

[Hida Tsuzua]

You can always try to do something like adrenaline surge and just be really really effective right out of the gate. Going first is quite important. You'll still want more IPs, but you can follow my common suggestion of cram, jazz, or kamikaze. If you need more IPs, you could spend edge for that extra pass (you'll have a high edge right?). You also go command rigger and use a drone for lots of IPs that way.

For better or for worse, SR is a game where you buy your awesome with BP/karma or cash. Overall, you'll got a uphill struggle.

[Whipstitch]

All the combat skills fill basically the same primary niche: Roll agility+skill to hurt people. So spending points on a bunch of combat skills like the corebook specialist is a recipe for mediocrity even with half-decent 'ware choices. I suggest you tweak the idea to lean more towards the security specialist/spotter side of the equation. A character with points in Hardware, Automatics, Perception, sensory 'ware, a manatech dealing fixer and a couple sensor drones is a helluva lot easier to make a viable part of the team than some unaugmented goober who just has Firearms and Close Combat at 4.

[HunterHerne]

What they are saying is generally true. In order to be a really effective mundane with bare-minumum augmentations, you need to how to use the system, and rely on the GM's open-mindedness.

On GM openmindedness, I've been working on a Martial Maneuver (Arsenal, 158) to allow mundanes without cyber a little more flexibility with IPs.

Martialist reflexes
The character is capable of moving extremely quickly, Delivering multiple punches and kicks to many opponents at once. In game terms, this Maneuver grants the practitioner an additional IP each time it is taken. The maximum number of times this maneuver is available is 3, or the highest number of ranks in any one martial art the Character possesses the quality for. These IPs do not stack with IPs from other sources, and have drawbacks of their own.
For each round the character uses this ability, he takes Fatigue damage equal to number of times he has taken this maneuver. If a character has 6 boxes of fatigue or more, he cannot use this maneuver until he rests.

[KCKitsune]

@OP: If you want minimum augmentation (High Essence) go with a synaptic booster level 1 or 2 depending on how you feel about spending money. The booster will give you extra IP's without blowing your Essence to hell and gone.

What they are saying is generally true. In order to be a really effective mundane with bare-minumum augmentations, you need to how to use the system, and rely on the GM's open-mindedness.

On GM openmindedness, I've been working on a Martial Maneuver (Arsenal, 158) to allow mundanes without cyber a little more flexibility with IPs.

Act Without Thought
The character is capable of moving extremely quickly, Delivering multiple punches and kicks to many opponents at once. In game terms, this Maneuver grants the practitioner an additional IP each time it is taken. The maximum number of times this maneuver is available is 3, or the highest number of ranks in any one martial art the Character possesses the quality for. These IPs do not stack with IPs from other sources, and have drawbacks of their own.
For each round the character uses this ability, he takes Fatigue damage equal to number of times he has taken this maneuver. If a character has 6 boxes of fatigue or more, he cannot use this maneuver until he rests.

Hunter... I don't know what to say. It sounds nice, but why would ANYONE want to get 'Ware or magic to boost their IPs when they can have "Act without Thought"? Most fights are not that long (don't last longer than 1 or 2 rounds) and you can rest between uses. Hell, if you're a mage, just use a Heal spell and you're good to go.

[LurkerOutThere]

For what it's worth I wouldn't put anything in that rewards people for not taking magic or tech, you want to be the special snowflake that's groovy, you have to live with that choice.

[HunterHerne]

For what it's worth I wouldn't put anything in that rewards people for not taking magic or tech, you want to be the special snowflake that's groovy, you have to live with that choice.

If that is in relation to my post, I don't feel the ability is a reward. If anything, it could be downright suicidal (If you need to take that much fatigue damage, it restricts other thngs you can do, as well. Like running, and swimming.)

[KCKitsune]

If that is in relation to my post, I don't feel the ability is a reward. If anything, it could be downright suicidal (If you need to take that much fatigue damage, it restricts other thngs you can do, as well. Like running, and swimming.)

Unless you have bi-cardiac. That gives you two extra boxes of fatigue damage.

For what it's worth I wouldn't put anything in that rewards people for not taking magic or tech, you want to be the special snowflake that's groovy, you have to live with that choice.

I agree with you 100%. My combat medic mage, not only has magic, but he also has 2 points of 'Ware.

[HunterHerne]

Hunter... I don't know what to say. It sounds nice, but why would ANYONE want to get 'Ware or magic to boost their IPs when they can have "Act without Thought"? Most fights are not that long (don't last longer than 1 or 2 rounds) and you can rest between uses. Hell, if you're a mage, just use a Heal spell and you're good to go.

You may be correct. It's a work in progress, among other things I've considered. Of course, I am also looking at it from the perspective of my own setting, which I use both optional rules for slower healing (Body -wounds for P, will or body-wounds for S) and I limit Heal to working within the Force rules (the attempted damage =Force. If force>magic attribute drain is physical. Cannot attempt to heal damage greater then magic x2. But, the drain is F/2-2.

I can certainly see your side. In a standard game, it is a killer ability. It's also a house rule, and can much more easily be adapted, if allowed at all (change the fatigue damage to physical damage, for example). It's not everyone's bag of tea, just giving an option to think about.

[UmaroVI]

Basically, you should just be aware that you're paying a significant amount of effectiveness to be a Special Snowflake. If you're cool with that, don't worry about optimization because you're already shooting yourself in the foot in that regard. If you aren't, play something else.

[Kliko]

Remember your team-role. You are the support guy, you use commons sense stuff like tactics to save the day.

Also, do combat drugs when the bullets start flying your way.

I liked in 3rd edition how like small unit tactics could give you an initiativ bonus (and hence extra IP's).

[Marwynn]

You can be quite effective with even just 1 IP.

Devote some money for Drones. Not as a Rigger, but more like a Robot Commander. A Fly-Spy in a good angle versus some foes in cover means you can use it as a spotter.

With a Grenade Launcher and a variety of grenades you can provide smoke/thermal smoke, big distractions and heavy enough firepower to scare off some corpsec. You can even be the Suppressive Cover guy. Dual wield some SMGs and you can lay down two suppressive fire zones that are overlapping.

Drugs are also a good choice provided you're willing to risk addiction.

[Smirnov]

Firstly, thanks for all replies and ideas. That's quite a number of options, and coming here for advice certainly was a good idea!

Well the game system by design iencourages people to go magic or tech as ther'es really little inducement to do neither (outside of roleplay which is reason enough but not setting correct).

True. But setting-wise Irish Tir elf who was unlucky to be born without magic would be an example. Tir culture highly disapproves of augmentation, but as far as I understand, not everyone gets to be awakened.
But my decision was more influenced by the fact, that we already got a bunch of spellcasters and near-zero Essence guys, so I wanted to make a different character.

Basically, you should just be aware that you're paying a significant amount of effectiveness to be a Special Snowflake. If you're cool with that, don't worry about optimization because you're already shooting yourself in the foot in that regard. If you aren't, play something else.

That's the whole point. I'm ready to pay for being that special snowflake, but I don't want to be a burden, as I have such example already. In one of our groups we have an augmentation-free mundane Face, and I sometimes find him lacking in possible actions, despite Face dealings being in my opinion the least augmentation/magic dependent role. And I go into combat side of things, the gap would be even more obvious.

So I'm ready to look for alternative tactics, less -ware and spell dependent actions. Ideally I want to find a role and means of fulfilling it that wouldn't be hampered by this 'purity'. But being just a litlle behind is not big deal. On the other hand, if all I can possibly so is to be that snowflake, I'd better start looking for another character concept.


So, to sum up the ideas, I can go for drugs, drones (idea which I like the most), alpha+ bioware, manatech and some advantages like Initiative boost or buying IPs with edge (playing a mage before, I forgot about that, thanks for the reminder!), which is morу like a Tir Ghost to me. That's probably the way to go!

And one question about manatech - is it possible to get spell effects as manatech?

[HunterHerne]

And one question about manatech - is it possible to get spell effects as manatech?

Not as far as I'm aware. The best you are going to get as far as spell-like abilities is using magical compounds, like Shade or Animal Tongue, or somehow conning a spirit into service.

[Smirnov]

Bugger. Because having spell-tech would certainly solve a lot of problems

[HunterHerne]

Bugger. Because having spell-tech would certainly solve a lot of problems

Yes it would. And make magic far too overpowered (especially with how much people on here seem to think it is anyway.)

That said, there should be more of a defence against magic, for personal use.

[Smirnov]

Well, I would certainly second the notion that magic is powerful. Maybe not allpowerful, but given a bit of time to prepare for the encounter, my Mage could achieve almost anything and was restricted only by the amount of spells avaliable to him.

But that's probably offtopic, and to stay on topic, I should add that I can squeeze a bit more from the GM in terms of avaliable gear than normally allowed [queue angel-face smiley here]

This post has been edited by Smirnov: Jul 18 2011, 10:04 PM

[StevenAngier]

Good Day!

I'm aiming to create a mundane security/weapons specialist with as little augmentations as possible, and right now I'm in a desperate need of an advice from more experienced players. Is this lind of the character even has the right to live or lacking additional IPs from either magic or augmentation, he will severely lack in effectiveness? (That's my major consern right now as my personal experience says that IPs rule the battlefield).
What are the options for such character if there are any?

Thanks in advance.

Things like Senseware and Headware are nearly mandatory for EVERY character (at least the fluff suggests that). Besides that, most veteran employees in the security branche WILL have some sort of initiative boost because the opposition WILL go this way also. Have a look at standard cybersuites for security corps or example grunts in this field of employment. Part of the dystopian theme of Shadowrun is that in order to survive you have to sacrifice at least part of your humanity to even have a chance.

Even non-awakened Irish-Tir-Elves lean towards augmentation. The fluff just suggests that they try to have it as covered up as possible to hit the "back to nature"-theme. Hands down.. do you really think the Danaan families would NOT want their security to be top notch?

[UmaroVI]

You can be a VR joystick rigger who wouldn't be all that much better with tons of augmentation. You almost certainly want some augmentation, but you'd be looking at more like 2 Essence or so, rather than almost all of it.

How it works:

You want a good Commlink with a high response. You want a good Command program. High rated command programs are not super-duper expensive. You want on your commlink Response Enhancers and Simsense Accelerator, and Optimized (Command), and you want the gear to hot-sim. You want implanted a Simsense Booster (.5 essence), Reflex Recorders (Infiltration, Shadowing, Perception) (.3 essence), and an Attention Coprocessor (.3 essence), for .95 essence of stuff.

You yourself want high Intuition, high Gunnery (this should probably be your 6), Infiltration, Shadowing, and Perception. You really, really want Codeslinger: Control Device. You should probably have at least some Pilot Ground Craft and Pilot Aircraft. You can get a lot of mileage out of First Aid because you can Control Device a medkit and roll First Aid+Command.

Other than that, you can more or less do whatever else you want with your remaining points. High edge is probably a good investment. The only thing that could make you better at joystick rigging is being an adept and having Improved Ability for some of your skills, but it wouldn't make you dramatically better.

Ideally you would stay in the van, hotsim, and Remote Control (or Issue Command) to drones, and try to avoid physical combat entirely. You can be perfectly effective while doing this. If you are forced to fight physically I recommend drugs and/or running for your life.

[Smirnov]

Things like Senseware and Headware are nearly mandatory for EVERY character (at least the fluff suggests that). Besides that, most veteran employees in the security branche WILL have some sort of initiative boost because the opposition WILL go this way also. Have a look at standard cybersuites for security corps or example grunts in this field of employment. Part of the dystopian theme of Shadowrun is that in order to survive you have to sacrifice at least part of your humanity to even have a chance.

Fair point, notes taken!

Even non-awakened Irish-Tir-Elves lean towards augmentation. The fluff just suggests that they try to have it as covered up as possible to hit the "back to nature"-theme. Hands down.. do you really think the Danaan families would NOT want their security to be top notch?

I assumed they would have 'lesser' metas wire themselves to hell while they, true masters of life, reap the benefit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You can be a VR joystick rigger who wouldn't be all that much better with tons of augmentation. You almost certainly want some augmentation, but you'd be looking at more like 2 Essence or so, rather than almost all of it.

Thanks for the input! I'll look into all these options, maybe it is what I need.


I was thinking about first strike.
Assuming all goes well, I have my drones, I fight with a team and so on. Then I have a role. I can support other combatant, create destractions, be a spotter/coordinator and so on. But it will, sooner or later, come on the other side of the lucky coin. Sometimes things go bad, they always go bad. That's where I need to take down a guy or two. As it is worst-case scenario, I can't run away, help is not coming and the guy is pretty bad-ass himself. So I need to take him down or at least disable myself, in as little action as possible. Assuming I can win the initiative, is there a viable alpha-strike in the mechanic?


And an unrelated question - are there anywhere solid numbers on capatilisations of corporations depending on their rating?

[UmaroVI]

Okay, so more what can you do to be ready if you get into a physical fight in your meat body without help?

First, try to avoid this by using a Rigger Cocoon. Another good idea is to make sure you have an armed drone near your physical body at all times - you can Control Device it to kill people much more effectively than you can kill people yourself, even when only in AR. But in case you can't avoid it:

1) Own and wear proper armor. FFBA and Softweave, then make sure you have as much as you can put on encumbrance-wise. Especially if your goal is more not getting killed than winning fights, you're better off focusing on having a good Body score and nice but inobvious armor than anything else.

2) The easiest way to be effective is to use a one-handed weapon like an SMG with a Cyberarm that's been customized and enhanced to have maxed Agility. Even if you suck (0 Automatics), you can get a modified Ingram SuperMach with enough RC to do a long wide/long wide or a full wide, have a 9 agility arm, smartlink for another 2, and be rolling 10 dice and penalizing dodge. Use Stick-and-shock or chem rounds loaded with something like DMSO+Slab, or DMSO+Gamma-scopalamine, or something else similarly nasty (that replaces base damage). Of course this requires you have a cyberarm.

3) Jazz and Cram are the way to get extra IPs as a mundane, and they stack.

4) Wear chemically sealed armor and drop Chem Grenades loaded with chemicals as in 2. Don't dick around with inhalation vector toxins, those are much easier to defend against.

5) 2 and 4 lead you to hitting someone with a chemical attack and then waiting until the pass ends for them to drop. Thermal Smoke grenades and Flashpaks are a good way to buy time.

6) If you don't want a cyberarm, you can get mehhh dicepools with Automatics anyways. Focus on getting a lot of recoil compensation together - unaugmented, you can scrape up 8 RC on an Ares Alpha. Assuming 2 agility, Automatics 1, specialization in Assault Rifles, and Smartlink, you can roll 7 dice, and do long wide/short wide, which will at least have a pretty good chance of hitting most people. You can also use drugs to pump your agility, although if you take a 5-drug cocktail on a regular basis expect some addiction rolls.

[Smirnov]

Thanks for the imput!

And what about martial arts? Are they a viable choice, at least as an addition to other abilities?

[Smirnov]

doublepost, sorry

[Whipstitch]

In one of our groups we have an augmentation-free mundane Face, and I sometimes find him lacking in possible actions, despite Face dealings being in my opinion the least augmentation/magic dependent role.

Yeah, I'm afraid that's not really true unless your GM magical tea parties social encounters and doesn't reward the use of disguises-- the Face, as the name implies, is the member of the group who is most likely to have to get out there and be seen on camera or walk right up to that guard, after all. In fact, I'd argue that Face is one of the roles that stands the most to gain at chargen from having magical abilities and augmentations simply because they stack up so well and the social augs take up relatively little essence even if you go whole hog. So unless your GM magical tea parties everything or otherwise sets the dice thresholds low augmented and magically active characters will always have a serious, serious edge in that arena. The only thing an unaugmented mundo will have on a social adept is maybe more points to spend on contacts. Even that may not be true, however, given that high attributes and skills cost more than Tailored Pheromones or a Kinesics, Con, and Improved Ability combo, so it's possible to be roughly as good as the mundo for cheaper, at which point the augmented guy can then take his savings and spend them on contacts. Really, the only role that I felt ever really worked fine as completely unaugmented was the Hacker back before Augmentation or Unwired ever hit, since ultimately they were still gear dependent (if not implant dependent) and Edge is very powerful for them. Riggers are similar but have always at least strongly benefited from a Control Rig.