[X] My Assistant

[KarmaInferno]

True. The main advantage of One Inch Punch is usually surprise.

As mentioned earlier, Mythbusters did some testing and found that it generated about half the force of a full-swing punch. So, enough to stagger an opponent, especially if he wasn't expecting it.




-k

[Blitz66]

Sort of like how plenty of convincing demonstrations of mind reading have been carried out, and those experiences aren't cancelled by psychics not being able to do it out under controlled conditions?

Just to be clear, what sort of power do you (all one inch punch believers can reply) think a one inch punch creates? Is it like a good boxer's jab, or half that, or a cross?

That's how you debunk things, yes. Those psychics, when they can't duplicate the feat under lab conditions, have been debunked. People can and have done effective one-inch punches in laboratory conditions.

My own one-inch punch is similar in power to my best jab. My hook blows it clean away, as does my straight. It isn't the One True Punch, but it's useful.

[Doc Byte]

There are ways to achieve walking through security successfully without ditching 'ware. Opt for bioware and openly available cyberware, maybe permits for a few bits, and you're set. Not missing out on too much.

It's mostly a matter of fluff and not a matter of crunch regarding my team.

[Blitz66]

It's mostly a matter of fluff and not a matter of crunch regarding my team.

I get that, but crunch-wise... Ouch.

[Smokeskin]

As mentioned earlier, Mythbusters did some testing and found that it generated about half the force of a full-swing punch. So, enough to stagger an opponent, especially if he wasn't expecting it.

Actually, the world's best ninja's one inch punch was half as powerful as the completely untrained host's full swing.

[Doc Byte]

I get that, but crunch-wise... Ouch.

Looking at the 900 Karma versions with 100k extra creds, I'd say they should be able to put up a good fight, if they have to. Sure they don't fight like Streetsams but like soldiers, what is exactly what they have been before turning to the shadows.

[sabs]

Given that you can deliver a one inch punch in a micro second, where as a full punch has tons of lead time and is stupidly easy to block or dodge. The power of the 1 inch punch isn't in it's sheer power, it's in it's ability to connect and cause reaction slowdown.

My 1 inch punch isn't particularly strong, although if I center it, and sink into it it's enough to make someone with pads flinch. But I get to land it fairly often, because it comes out of nowhere with almost no warning.

[Smokeskin]

That's how you debunk things, yes. Those psychics, when they can't duplicate the feat under lab conditions, have been debunked. People can and have done effective one-inch punches in laboratory conditions.

My own one-inch punch is similar in power to my best jab. My hook blows it clean away, as does my straight. It isn't the One True Punch, but it's useful.

Please show me a lab test that demonstrates the power of the one inch punch then. At some point you'll get home to your computer so you won't have to copy paste from your phone.

So, you think it is like your jab, that's not too shabby even if the jab is the weakest punch. How have you tested this? Do you use it in sparring and fighting? Why do you think MMA fighters don't use one inch punches in the clinch or dirty boxing situations, or when a fighter is in the guard and the bottom guy keeps him tugged in so he can't swing his punches properly?

[HunterHerne]

Given that you can deliver a one inch punch in a micro second, where as a full punch has tons of lead time and is stupidly easy to block or dodge. The power of the 1 inch punch isn't in it's sheer power, it's in it's ability to connect and cause reaction slowdown.

My 1 inch punch isn't particularly strong, although if I center it, and sink into it it's enough to make someone with pads flinch. But I get to land it fairly often, because it comes out of nowhere with almost no warning.

And padding is what? PPP gear...

[sabs]

One inch punch requires sinking, and centering and it's actually a full body punch. It's about explosive strength, and even though your fist only travels one inch before hitting a target, it doesn't stop moving. You still put your hip and shoulder and body weight into it, and you keep extending your arm to keep on going. It's not something you can do while on the ground. Really, very few effective punches can be done from laying prone on the ground.

MMA doesn't do a lot of stuff, using MMA as a benchmark is stupid, because they're not trying to kill each other.
The one inch punch, giving me an opening to do a tiger claw to the throat, isn't helpful in MMA. Because the tiger claw to the throat is illegal. It's like Snake Style. You'll never see someone in a friendly competition use real versions of the various Snake styles. Because Snake isn't about pummeling and rendering someone unconcious. It's about causing massive soft tissue and internal organ damage.

[sabs]

And padding is what? PPP gear...

Padding in this case would be 1.5 inches of rubber and foam covering:
Chest
Head
Hands
Groin

[Redjack]

Please stay on topic. If you would like to discuss another topic, start another thread.

[HunterHerne]

One inch punch requires sinking, and centering and it's actually a full body punch. It's about explosive strength, and even though your fist only travels one inch before hitting a target, it doesn't stop moving. You still put your hip and shoulder and body weight into it, and you keep extending your arm to keep on going. It's not something you can do while on the ground. Really, very few effective punches can be done from laying prone on the ground.

MMA doesn't do a lot of stuff, using MMA as a benchmark is stupid, because they're not trying to kill each other.
The one inch punch, giving me an opening to do a tiger claw to the throat, isn't helpful in MMA. Because the tiger claw to the throat is illegal. It's like Snake Style. You'll never see someone in a friendly competition use real versions of the various Snake styles. Because Snake isn't about pummeling and rendering someone unconcious. It's about causing massive soft tissue and internal organ damage.

Which is something I've stated before about how effective using any competition as a means to guage their "martial" (not "martial art") unarmed ability is, regardless of the style in question.

[Traul]

I just realized recently that there is, in fact, actual gear in Runner's Companion. I have had the book for ages now and only looked at the character options and qualities. Among other things, the MAD jammers and Magnetic Diffusion Shielding from the book pretty much mean that cyberware should rarely ever set off a MAD scanner.

The MAD jammer simply reduces the rating of the MAD scanner by it's rating, up to 3 points. The MDS subdermal sheathing increases the threshold needed to detect shielded equipment by it's rating, up to 3.

Since MAD scanners only go up to rating 3, potentially it has to score four successes on three dice. If the jammer is activated at the time of scanning, that's four hits needed on zero dice. It won't help against cyberware scanners, but most low to mid security places only use MAD scanners, since those are "good enough" for day-to-day.

Actually, Cyberware scanners cost the same as MAD scanners, are easier to find ( 4R instead of 6R), have a longer range (15m instead of 5), go up to Rating 6 and can also detect non-metallic weapons. Per RAW, MAD scanners are completely outclassed and should have disappeared. But Runner Companion completely does not mention any way to circumvent cyberware scanners. You're probably better off merging them: MAD scanners go the way of the dodo and the counters presented in Runner Companion work against cyberware scanners.

[KarmaInferno]

While it is true that Cyberware Scanners SHOULD have supplanted MAD scanners all over, for some reason in the SR universe they have not. You still tend to see MAD scanners in publicly accessible buildings, like offices and shops and clubs. Cyberware scanners in the various books tend to show up in high security areas.

No, I don't know why that is, and the SR fluff makes no explanation. So I guess if your GM follows the books, then anti-MAD stuff is more useful. It depends on your campaign.

SR3 had RAM shielding, but that vanished since then somehow. I suppose it's just rolled into Signature Masking.




-k

[Glyph]

High skills, martial arts, and other things can make a tough mundane character, but the problem is that anything they can get, the street samurai or adept can get - and add magic or augmentation to it. Sure, you can get +3 DV from martial arts. The street samurai can do that, then get bone lacing and muscle augmentation. The adept can do that, then get critical strike and killing hands.

Unaugmented mundanes can be effective if you are playing in a campaign like Doc Byte's, where they are built on a lot of points, and all light on the 'ware. Or if you are playing a tweaked-out mundane in a campaign with poorly-built or low-powered augmented or awakened characters. Or if you are the sole specialist in a certain area (such as covert ops), meaning no one will be overshadowing you.

But generally, being an unaugmented mundane is a huge disadvantage. You can offset it a bit with a high Edge, decent gear, and some tactical thinking. But it's tough. You ever see Blade Runner? You are basically Deckard, and everyone else is a replicant.

[Blitz66]

EDIT: topic-squash.

[Smirnov]

To get a bit back on topic, I'll quote my last question, it seems it was lost in the discussion.

Getting a bit back to the topic, can a character volunteraly initiate surprise attack? BRB states that 'if there is a surprise, blah-blah-blah' and the elvish martial art has a bonus to surprise attack. Does it mean that I, as a player, can initiate a surprise attack with all subsequent rolls and actions? And if yes, how would Adrenaline Surge affect these rolls? You roll fo surprise as usuall, but go first nevertheless?

[sabs]

It could be that Cyberware scanners are a privacy issue? Where as MAD Scanners are not?
Certain types of Cyberware are legal, and yet embarrassing. It does seem weird that a world like Shadowrun would care about that. It's not a cost issue. Maybe it's a slow moving bureaucracy issue. MAD scanners are installed, they work generally well, and it would cost money to replace them with cyberscanners. So instead, you leave them where they are, maybe as they break and you need to replace you start putting in cyberscanners, but then you have to pay for two different maintenance contracts, and the maintenance software for your skillwired techs.

[HunterHerne]

As far as initiating surprise, it depends. You can initiate combat when everyone else is talking, but that would require a surprise check for everyone else to be able to act in that first pass, including team mates. It would also give you the ambush bonus, I think (+6). And, again, if you pull out your gun and shoot, your friends have no warning (if you did warn them you might, I would allow the NPC's a perception and/or sense motive test to see something was up). If I were GM, I would also give you a point of Notoriety if you did this in say, a Johnson meet, or another discussion.

[Traul]

Getting a bit back to the topic, can a character volunteraly initiate surprise attack? BRB states that 'if there is a surprise, blah-blah-blah' and the elvish martial art has a bonus to surprise attack. Does it mean that I, as a player, can initiate a surprise attack with all subsequent rolls and actions? And if yes, how would Adrenaline Surge affect these rolls? You roll fo surprise as usuall, but go first nevertheless?

When you plan a Surprise attack, it's an Ambush and the rules for it are right after the Surprise rules: +6 to the surprise test and the ambusher cannot be be surprised. Adrenaline Surge allows you not to read the overly complicated last paragraph since you will always go first (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Basically, he is asking if he can make it so he is surprised and gets his bonus . .

[Rubic]

Sort of like how plenty of convincing demonstrations of mind reading have been carried out, and those experiences aren't cancelled by psychics not being able to do it out under controlled conditions?

Just to be clear, what sort of power do you (all one inch punch believers can reply) think a one inch punch creates? Is it like a good boxer's jab, or half that, or a cross?

One Inch Punch isn't the same as the psychics, because it CAN be carried out when outside of those controlled circumstances. You tell somebody to take their 1 inch punch into a laboratory with a sensor to detect the force of the blow, and they can still produce that same force exerted on the wooden board, or their associate, or the training pads, or whatever. Now, if you tied the person's arm down so they couldn't move it, that is a situation that would make it physically impossible, like removing the drive train from a car and saying that if it doesn't run, then cars are a sham and don't really work.

Mythbusters had a MMA competitor perform a 1 inch punch for their Kill Bill coffin scene myth, and he was able to produce 1430 lbs of force. Not everybody will be able to do that much, some might be able to do more.

[Falanin]

Smirnov, I run surprise this way.

If you are undetected when you attack, surprise is automatic. Snipers often get this. If you're hoping to get this bonus for a hand-to-hand attack, your target will generally get a perception check to detect you, which, if successful, drops you from this bonus to the next one. (or possibly to the third state, if they detect you more than a round in advance)

If you were undetected until the turn you attack, AND you detect your enemy before that, you generally get the +6 ambush bonus. You'd also get this bonus if you were being friendly when you whip out your gun (assuming your target believed the friendly act).

If you were undetected until the turn you attack, and you don't detect your opponent either, you roll for surprise as normal. This also happens in situations where everyone is suspicious. but nobody knows when or if the guns are coming out.

The classic western quick-draw duel (and similar situations) skips surprise entirely, and just goes straight to initiative.

[Makki]

if A is not an obvious hostile, B should not get a perception check. drawing a gun and shoot is one action phase, there is no time in between, to see what's coming. So unless B is prepared for a fight, A gets +6 to the surprise test. I just don't see it otherwise