[X] My Assistant

[UmaroVI]

Thanks for the imput!

And what about martial arts? Are they a viable choice, at least as an addition to other abilities?

Martial arts are potentially useful but probably not in the way you're thinking. The closest you're going to come to being good at physical combat is using attacks you can Wide Burst with; you don't want to sink a lot of points into trying to be good at melee combat in your meat body. If you like the idea of martial arts there are some uses; the trick is to gab things that don't just help you fight physically, but also help you with guns and joystick rigging.:

Krav Maga's "Take Aim as a free action" trick is useful since you can use it both in the meat and while joystick rigging. Ninjutsu can give you +1 die to Infiltration tests which again applies to both meat and joystick rigging - only do this if you already have Infiltration 4, though, because it's 5 bp for that point. Pentjak-Silat and Wildcat can both give you +1 die to called shots to increase damage, which is a frequently useful option; this does require a free action, though, so you should probably take either this or Krav Maga's take aim as a free action, not both. You will be mostly making Full Burst attacks as a complex action, so you can spend one free action to call a shot for anywhere from +1 to hit, +1 DV to -2 to hit, +4 DV.

Manuever-wise, I wouldn't spit on Watchful Guard even if it's only 1 dice. If your GM will let you use Vicious Blow with Stick-and-Shock ammunition, then it provides a hilarious way of tasing vehicles and drones to death; I think as written it does allow that but your GM might not like that one and it seems a bit fishy to me. Full Offense is nice because the penalty only stops you from defending against melee attacks, but it appears to work with all attacks including ranged ones. Also, if you are joysticking a cheap drone, it might be worth it anyways. Multi-Strike might or might not be useful - I have SR4A, so I can't tell what it's meant to refer to. If it only works with melee, no. If it applies to the use of Full Bursts to hit multiple targets, it might be worth 2 bp. If it also applies to using an AE attack like a grenade, that's nice too.

[HunterHerne]

Martial arts are potentially useful but probably not in the way you're thinking. The closest you're going to come to being good at physical combat is using attacks you can Wide Burst with; you don't want to sink a lot of points into trying to be good at melee combat in your meat body. If you like the idea of martial arts there are some uses; the trick is to gab things that don't just help you fight physically, but also help you with guns and joystick rigging.:

Krav Maga's "Take Aim as a free action" trick is useful since you can use it both in the meat and while joystick rigging. Ninjutsu can give you +1 die to Infiltration tests which again applies to both meat and joystick rigging - only do this if you already have Infiltration 4, though, because it's 5 bp for that point. Pentjak-Silat and Wildcat can both give you +1 die to called shots to increase damage, which is a frequently useful option; this does require a free action, though, so you should probably take either this or Krav Maga's take aim as a free action, not both. You will be mostly making Full Burst attacks as a complex action, so you can spend one free action to call a shot for anywhere from +1 to hit, +1 DV to -2 to hit, +4 DV.

Manuever-wise, I wouldn't spit on Watchful Guard even if it's only 1 dice. If your GM will let you use Vicious Blow with Stick-and-Shock ammunition, then it provides a hilarious way of tasing vehicles and drones to death; I think as written it does allow that but your GM might not like that one and it seems a bit fishy to me. Full Offense is nice because the penalty only stops you from defending against melee attacks, but it appears to work with all attacks including ranged ones. Also, if you are joysticking a cheap drone, it might be worth it anyways. Multi-Strike might or might not be useful - I have SR4A, so I can't tell what it's meant to refer to. If it only works with melee, no. If it applies to the use of Full Bursts to hit multiple targets, it might be worth 2 bp. If it also applies to using an AE attack like a grenade, that's nice too.

That's another thing about my homebrew maneuver, the Martial Arts qualities generally don't offer anything particularily helpful, while counting against the quality limit. And when they are helpful, they really only help when using parts of several disciplines. Not very attractive an option, if you were to ask me.

[UmaroVI]

Yeah, most of the martial arts styles synergize VERY badly with themselves, but some of them synergize quite well with other styles. Also, a lot of the abilities are just plain awful.

[LurkerOutThere]

...and then there's Krav Maga which is so much cheese i've seen it get martial arts flat banned at a number of tables.

[Bushw4cker]

With Mundane, get some stealth skills and Longarms or Archery. Also a character with a really high edge can do wonders.

[Bushw4cker]

With Mundane, get some stealth skills and Longarms or Archery. Also a character with a really high edge can do wonders.

[Smirnov]

Yeah, I'm afraid that's not really true unless your GM magical tea parties social encounters and doesn't reward the use of disguises-- the Face, as the name implies, is the member of the group who is most likely to have to get out there and be seen on camera or walk right up to that guard, after all. In fact, I'd argue that Face is one of the roles that stands the most to gain at chargen from having magical abilities and augmentations simply because they stack up so well and the social augs take up relatively little essence even if you go whole hog. So unless your GM magical tea parties everything or otherwise sets the dice thresholds low augmented and magically active characters will always have a serious, serious edge in that arena. The only thing an unaugmented mundo will have on a social adept is maybe more points to spend on contacts. Even that may not be true, however, given that high attributes and skills cost more than Tailored Pheromones or a Kinesics, Con, and Improved Ability combo, so it's possible to be roughly as good as the mundo for cheaper, at which point the augmented guy can then take his savings and spend them on contacts. Really, the only role that I felt ever really worked fine as completely unaugmented was the Hacker back before Augmentation or Unwired ever hit, since ultimately they were still gear dependent (if not implant dependent) and Edge is very powerful for them. Riggers are similar but have always at least strongly benefited from a Control Rig.

And here I was trying to sound diplomatic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
If 'magic tea parties' being steamlined railroaded scenes, then yes, that's exactly the point. Can't say much about augmentation, but as far as magic goes, there are just too many effective ways to influence social interactions to miss it.

Martial arts are potentially useful but probably not in the way you're thinking. The closest you're going to come to being good at physical combat is using attacks you can Wide Burst with; you don't want to sink a lot of points into trying to be good at melee combat in your meat body. If you like the idea of martial arts there are some uses; the trick is to gab things that don't just help you fight physically, but also help you with guns and joystick rigging.:

Seems I got the right impression of Krav Maga (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And maneovres like Finishing Blow/Set Up aren't worth the effort?

[Whipstitch]

Well, by magical tea party I mostly meant the gm essentially tossing the dice out the window for a while rather than just railroading, a situation that is a pretty common occurrence with social situations in many games. Besides, even if the GM plays things to the letter there's still a degree of variability given that how much a net hit is "worth" is still left to GM discretion. I don't even really dislike magical tea party all that much, actually. Hell, the most sublime "gaming" experience I've ever had was a round of Munchausen after a few drinks.

[Smirnov]

In our group it's almost always 'roleplay now, roll later', with rolls affected by the roleplay itself (actually I'm the main propent of this style), so stats are vital, but sometimes it's possible to cut some angles.
Still, having a more options is having more options, even if we don't roll a single die

[UmaroVI]

Seems I got the right impression of Krav Maga (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And maneovres like Finishing Blow/Set Up aren't worth the effort?

Finishing Blow is for melee only. Melee is sketchy in general and not a good idea for your character.

Set Up is crap. If you can Set Up succesfully, you could have hit them. Why would you trade a hit for a small number of extra dice on your next shot?

I suppose there might be some extreme edge cases where Set Up wasn't a trap, but it's not worth 2 BP. If it was free, I can't think of the last time I would even have considered using it.

[HunterHerne]

In our group it's almost always 'roleplay now, roll later', with rolls affected by the roleplay itself (actually I'm the main propent of this style), so stats are vital, but sometimes it's possible to cut some angles.
Still, having a more options is having more options, even if we don't roll a single die

That is how I've played so far, but I'm not in total agreement with it. Personally, I would prefer if all the characters (NPC's included, though it would be faster to buy hits or do the actual rolls for many of them before hand) roll Ettiquette, and then the GM uses that to guage how the character should act (based on the actual character's personality, of course. But sometimes, even a typically rude asshat will have a good day and be all smiles, or a happy go lucky guy will havea string of bad luck when he wakes up, putting him i na foul mood). Then, use that to guage the penalties that may occur on the rolls later (con, negotiation and intimidate, most likely)

In my opinion, this will also be an interesting circumstance of players roleplaying their character having an off day.

[DamienKnight]

Thanks for the imput!

And what about martial arts? Are they a viable choice, at least as an addition to other abilities?

Martial arts are a great way to make a mundane combat worthy. There are options that let you crank up your DV (i think capped at +3) which can make your damage comparable to bone lacing cyberguys with higher strength than you.

Also, you can use Ninjutsu technics to fight better in the dark, and utilize vision hampering grenades, like thermal smoke etc. to give yourself a slight advantage. Remember, vision penalties are halved in melee, so make em blind then get in close and punch em where it counts >:)

[Whipstitch]

Strongly disagree with calling it "combat worthy"-- it's really more like a half-decent last resort option if you've been relieved of your weapons. Melee just isn't a very good primary shtick in shadowrun* and compounding it by restricting yourself to the most expensive ways of being good at melee makes for rough sledding. Taking Unarmed or Clubs along with the Gymnastics skill isn't a terrible character feature but if you go that route I'd rather suggest concentrating on the Krav utility bonuses, the ability to deal damaging disarms on Full Parry or jacking up your Block or Parry skill so you can get back to your gun rather than expect to be punking people in hand to hand.


*I do not even seriously consider melee frontliner to be a complete role on a lot of teams-- anything above low powered street level games and you should be able to do something other than just say "I violence it if it is close enough," full stop. The characters I've seen succeed with hand to hand weren't good characters because of their mad melee skillz but because of an overpowering advantage in durability or stealth. It's a lot easier to get away with bringing a knife to a gunfight if you happen to be all but immune to heavy pistols.

[Xenefungus]

I'm aiming to create a mundane security/weapons specialist with as little augmentations as possible.

Are you talking about essence or nuyen here? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Doc Byte]

The 'Nullhead' is an old concept character I've posted a while ago.

Race: Homo Sapiens Sapiens


Attributes

B: 3
A: 5
R: 4
S: 3
C: 3
I: 4
L : 3
W: 3

Edge: 5
Essence: 6

Positive qualities

Blandness
Erased II
Adrenaline Surge

Negative qualities

Sensitive System
Nano Intolerance

Active skills

Perception: 3
Dodge: 3
Longarms: 3
Automatics (Assault Rifles): 4+2
Unarmed Combat: 3
Athletics: 2
Stealth: 3
Etiquette: 3
Negotiation: 2
Pilot Ground Craft (Wheeled): 4+2
Automotive Mechanic: 2
Armorer: 1
Survival (Urban): 1+2
First Aid (Combat Wounds): 1+2
Locksmith: 1

Knowledge skills

Armstech: 2
Vehicletech: 2
Military Tactics: 2
Coverd-Ops Tactics: 2
Police Proceedings: 3
Anatomy: 1

Languages

German (m)
English: 4
French: 3
Spanish: 2
Russian: 2
Arabic: 2

Connections

Fixer (6/3)
Gunsmith (3/2)
Junkyard Owner (2/2)
Smuggler (2/2)
Club Owner (4/5)
Hacker (2/3)
Street Doc (3/2)


Weapon of choice: Modded AK-97
Vehicle: Modded BMW 400 GT


Area of operations: Sniper, rigger, infiltration

I've created another character based on the 'Nullhead' emphasizing the rigger part a bit more and tossing in a face, but I have no character sheet in English. I think the sniper/rigger path is the way to go for mudans w/o ware. Their huge advantage's that they can pass any security checkpoint w/o seting off an alarm.

[Smirnov]

Are you talking about essence or nuyen here? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Essence. As I mentioned, I can get a bit more stuff out of GM for this one (the rumor is we'll need it and it still won't enough (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

[UmaroVI]

Strongly disagree with calling it "combat worthy"-- it's really more like a half-decent last resort option if you've been relieved of your weapons. Melee just isn't a very good primary shtick in shadowrun* and compounding it by restricting yourself to the most expensive ways of being good at melee makes for rough sledding. Taking Unarmed or Clubs along with the Gymnastics skill isn't a terrible character feature but if you go that route I'd rather suggest concentrating on the Krav utility bonuses, the ability to deal damaging disarms on Full Parry or jacking up your Block or Parry skill so you can get back to your gun rather than expect to be punking people in hand to hand.


*I do not even seriously consider melee frontliner to be a complete role on a lot of teams-- anything above low powered street level games and you should be able to do something other than just say "I violence it if it is close enough," full stop. The characters I've seen succeed with hand to hand weren't good characters because of their mad melee skillz but because of an overpowering advantage in durability or stealth. It's a lot easier to get away with bringing a knife to a gunfight if you happen to be all but immune to heavy pistols.

This is very much true. The only effective melee characters I've seen have been effective because they were outrageously tough street samurai, and melee forces people to pay attention to you.

[Xenefungus]

Their huge advantage's that they can pass any security checkpoint w/o seting off an alarm.

That can largely be done while having bioware, too.

But i really like the blandness / erased combo, one of the few themes that fit for a human. Generally, i dont see why one would want to play such a character though. You can be low-dog with implants as well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)



If you just dont want to spend the BP, have a look over here -
Consider this, the ware of a ganger of mine:

Used Wired Reflexes 2
Muscle Replacement 2
Attention Coprocessor 3

While that does eat up all your essence it is only 35k. And it's really as "low-dog" as it gets. The boni are great though.

Show me a better way to invest 14 Karma (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Smirnov]

I've created another character based on the 'Nullhead' emphasizing the rigger part a bit more and tossing in a face, but I have no character sheet in English. I think the sniper/rigger path is the way to go for mudans w/o ware. Their huge advantage's that they can pass any security checkpoint w/o seting off an alarm.

Thanks for the character idea!

[Whipstitch]

sniper/rigger builds

As long as you're not in a group of gung-ho prime runner types I could easily see such concepts working-- especially with karmagen-- since they tend to be pretty gadget oriented and for better or worse Shadowrun is a rather gear oriented game. As I implied earlier, the trick is to avoid eschewing nuyen advancement entirely and to pack some tricks that don't give a rat's ass what your attributes are. If you're going to be a mundo then you should consider being a very technical boy. Knowing a few people in high places doesn't hurt either. I've played a character that was mostly a mundo and he got by basically by being a Trust Fund kiddie/small-time fixer.

[Smokeskin]

Strongly disagree with calling it "combat worthy"-- it's really more like a half-decent last resort option if you've been relieved of your weapons. Melee just isn't a very good primary shtick in shadowrun* and compounding it by restricting yourself to the most expensive ways of being good at melee makes for rough sledding. Taking Unarmed or Clubs along with the Gymnastics skill isn't a terrible character feature but if you go that route I'd rather suggest concentrating on the Krav utility bonuses, the ability to deal damaging disarms on Full Parry or jacking up your Block or Parry skill so you can get back to your gun rather than expect to be punking people in hand to hand.


*I do not even seriously consider melee frontliner to be a complete role on a lot of teams-- anything above low powered street level games and you should be able to do something other than just say "I violence it if it is close enough," full stop. The characters I've seen succeed with hand to hand weren't good characters because of their mad melee skillz but because of an overpowering advantage in durability or stealth. It's a lot easier to get away with bringing a knife to a gunfight if you happen to be all but immune to heavy pistols.

In mirrorshades and trenchcoat games, faces with strong unarmed combat are very good too. Social infil can and will leave you without guns. A character able to get in under the radar AND retain some combat ability can give you a lot of options. There is also bath house negotiations or getting padded down and having your guns removed before a meeting, where unarmed combat is also very good.

I think the system is right in leaving melee at low power levels. It is totally unrealistic for melee to equal firearms, and I think there was no reason to add the martial arts DV increases. It is completely unrealistic.

[Stahlseele]

The Reason WAS to make melee more equal in usefullness to firearms . . Also, in a game with magic and cyberware, it's best not to complain about stuff being unrealistic . .

As for the OP . . Any magical shenanigans in your group? If not, take Astral Hazing and act as a mostly mundane means of countering magic . .

[Smirnov]

As for the OP . . Any magical shenanigans in your group? If not, take Astral Hazing and act as a mostly mundane means of countering magic . .

Yup, there will be mage. But I'll think about this option - maybe we can work out something interresting from this

[Hida Tsuzua]

This is very much true. The only effective melee characters I've seen have been effective because they were outrageously tough street samurai, and melee forces people to pay attention to you.

It is pretty handy to give foes the -3 Attacker in Melee Combat modifier while you are axing them. On its own, the debuff isn't worth it, but since you grant it by just attacking someone, it's nice.

[UmaroVI]

In mirrorshades and trenchcoat games, faces with strong unarmed combat are very good too. Social infil can and will leave you without guns. A character able to get in under the radar AND retain some combat ability can give you a lot of options. There is also bath house negotiations or getting padded down and having your guns removed before a meeting, where unarmed combat is also very good.

I think the system is right in leaving melee at low power levels. It is totally unrealistic for melee to equal firearms, and I think there was no reason to add the martial arts DV increases. It is completely unrealistic.

An important point here is that unarmed combat != melee. A lot of people have an illogical love for armed melee combat which is one of the most niche roles in the game. Unarmed combat is not a terrible idea because of what you mentioned- and also because you can add Unarmed to your melee defense. Lots of spirits and critters are melee-centric and published material often has a lot of NPCs with silly katana fetishes.

However, you have to keep in mind that there's a "threshold of effectiveness." A 2 STR mundane with Agility 2, Unarmed 4, and +3 DV from martial arts qualities is simply not getting their BP's worth out of the martial arts because they are just not going to do enough damage for anyone to care. They'd be better off replacing the martial arts with, say, Palming 4 and trying to sneak in something like a Shock Glove. Or with a legal cyberhand that has an integral legal shock ability. Or any number of other things.