Bums in 2072, Giving a bum a money, and other questions about nuyen transfers. Options

[HunterHerne]

P.I.s do it, C.S.I.s do it, and bums have been doing it long before either of the first two existed. Dumpster Diving.

You'd be amazed at what some people throw away.

There is a new-ish movement based on that, which gained popularity with the worsening economic system the last couple years. In a report I saw on it, especially in large cities (New York, for example), people can actually be picky about what they eat of the garbage.

[CanRay]

Well, CanRay, first, you don't really need an MSP with WMI. Second, you can get a legal SIN at any time, remember? Seems to be the new thing in 4th edition...

No SIN, where do they send the bill? How do they pay the tax for the services? How do they track the person's surfing and shopping habits to sell to businesses? Black MSPs don't need a SIN, legit ones do, and Black MSPs cost. (I think WMI MSP services are in Unwired.).

As for SINs handed out willy-nilly? Where do you see that? There was a SIN Amnesty that lasted a far too short period of time, but that's all I can think of. It likely wasn't reported quickly enough for the homeless and completely destitute to get SINs, however.

I've likened it to a way to get political "Local Carpet Baggers", various PoliClubs ensured that "Their" SINless got SINs while the "Unwanted, Unwashed Masses" got to meet up with the more militant branches a few blocks away from the SIN Offices. Considering the whole chaos still going down when the amnesty happened, the police (If they were so inclined to give a devil rat's hoop) were too busy anyhow. So you had the Humanis Policlub loading up rented school buses full of humans to get SINs while their White Sheeted Brethren were in Metahuman neighborhoods ensuring "The Heathens" didn't get citizenship. MOM and The Sons of Sauron were probably doing the same. Just the way I view it.

There is a new-ish movement based on that, which gained popularity with the worsening economic system the last couple years. In a report I saw on it, especially in large cities (New York, for example), people can actually be picky about what they eat of the garbage.

New-ish is right. Repairing and rebuilding for resale from dumpster diving has been going on for quite some time now.

Not to mention junk yards.

[Bushw4cker]

The Bum could have a Criminal SIN.

[CanRay]

The Bum could have a Criminal SIN.

Yeah, wrong kind of SIN. Unless you had a legitimate SIN before, a Criminal SIN just means that you're a Probationary Citizen with a criminal record. (In the UCAS at least. In other countries, they just shoot you and leave you in the street, as you're a non-citizen anyhow, and the worst that can happen is "Discharge of a firearm within city limits.").

[KarmaInferno]

Well someone has to stock shelves,mop the floor,chase out loiters and bitch about how their not even suppose to be here today. Sure drone could do most of these jobs but humans are cheaper require less maintenance.

But drones add to the great chain of life! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt1W0F0yObg&t=6s

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)





-k

[suoq]

SR4A pg 41

if the cops arrest you and you don’t have a SIN (or you have one that doesn’t match up), they’ll assign you a “criminal SIN,” which has significantly fewer rights and privileges than a regular one.

Now he has a SIN and it explains why he's a bum.

------------

Sins handed out "Willy-nilly".

SR4A pg 266

It is possible to register with the UCAS government and obtain a SIN, but to do so one must prove that they are a solid, upstanding citizen and that the UCAS has something to gain by admitting them.

In short, if you're SINless and a company wants to hire you they should be able to get a SIN for you with you being a probationary citizen (same page) until the paperwork is complete.

[Bushw4cker]

But someone with a Criminal SIN can still have a bank account right?

[CanRay]

But drones add to the great chain of life! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt1W0F0yObg&t=6s

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
-k

You mean like these kinds of drones?

But someone with a Criminal SIN can still have a bank account right?

If they had a legitimate SIN before, yeah, but it'd be monitored more closely.

SINless before? Why bother? He's only going to use it for criminal purposes anyhow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[HunterHerne]

New-ish is right. Repairing and rebuilding for resale from dumpster diving has been going on for quite some time now.

Not to mention junk yards.

I was actually refering to Freegans, who peruse roadside garbage for throwaways, especially from food establishments, and make use of the waste. There are defenitely also people who take junk and either re-sell it, or reuse it in another way, but that has been a staple of the poor, desperate, and cheap for a very long time (before there was public waste workers)

[Traul]

A legal company can't use SINless (Can't tax them after all. The rare SIN handouts by the Government and Military Service seem to be the only way to get one legitimately.).

But are there still taxes? If an Ares citizen lives in an Ares condo, he is an Ares resident, right? So he should not own any tax to UCAS. Ares themselves might still pay taxes, but they call it outsourcing unprofitable business (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Rubic]

Well, CanRay, first, you don't really need an MSP with WMI. Second, you can get a legal SIN at any time, remember? Seems to be the new thing in 4th edition...

Legal SINs cost money, usually more than the uncared for masses can afford. I also don't see what sort of problem organized crime would see in such a "charity," especially when you consider it gives them a way to harvest/launder SINs. I never said this would be a means to stop running, nor did I say it would not be an accessory to running...

[SpellBinder]

You still don't have to have a SIN if you're a bum. You got your dumpster commlink, a basic credstick (which a veteran SR player, since SR 1, has described as being very common), and set the commlink to to automatically transmit funds to and from any credstick you've got plugged into it (paranoid about hackers? quickly plug in the credstick just before a transfer, and yank it out when it's done) instead of an online bank account.

On top of that, thinking about it now, you don't even need the commlink if all the low end food joints have credstick readers.

[Fatum]

Legal SINs cost money, usually more than the uncared for masses can afford. I also don't see what sort of problem organized crime would see in such a "charity," especially when you consider it gives them a way to harvest/launder SINs. I never said this would be a means to stop running, nor did I say it would not be an accessory to running...

Well, the bit about SINs being readily available for anyone comes from Core AE, p.41 and p.266.
But where does it say that you have to pay for one? Fake SINs - sure, those cost money. But an actual legal one?

Also, apropos to MSPs - Unwired says you can not have one, if you don't want to, I believe. At the very basis of the WMI lies the idea of a mesh network, one that is online as long as there are devices online to retransmit the message between each other. Yeah, you won't have a mail or a commcode, but those are not the things you need as a bum that much anyway.

[Rubic]

Well, the bit about SINs being readily available for anyone comes from Core AE, p.41 and p.266.
But where does it say that you have to pay for one? Fake SINs - sure, those cost money. But an actual legal one?

You're neglecting the cost of paperwork and bureaucracy. This, coupled with the need for some sort of proof of history would make it problematic. By providing work and legitimacy, you help the needy, and by teaming with organized crime, you ironically provide the government with proof that your safety measures to prevent criminal exploitation are effective!

[suoq]

You still don't have to have a SIN if you're a bum.

SR4 Pg 41. See above.

if all the low end food joints have credstick readers.

Unwired, Pg 11 "A lot of stores don’t even carry credstick readers anymore."

[CanRay]

But are there still taxes? If an Ares citizen lives in an Ares condo, he is an Ares resident, right? So he should not own any tax to UCAS. Ares themselves might still pay taxes, but they call it outsourcing unprofitable business (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There are taxes for Ares Citizens, and they go to Ares Macrotechnology to improve infrastructure and public services that each employee enjoys, such as firing ranges for ages six and up!

[HunterHerne]

There are taxes for Ares Citizens, and they go to Ares Macrotechnology to improve infrastructure and public services that each employee enjoys, such as firing ranges for ages six and up!

You're kind of place?

[Fatum]

Unwired, Pg 11 "A lot of stores don’t even carry credstick readers anymore."

Well, those stores are losing on bum clientèle.

[SpellBinder]

What I was thinking. Money is money, anything for a profit.

Now in the cleaner part of town, where the polite wageslaves live and work like the good little sheep they are, a credstick reader is likely harder to find (why need a credstick if you're a legal citizen doing nothing but legal business?). But then, a bum is probably going to be just as hard to find as well.

[CanRay]

There are taxes for Ares Citizens, and they go to Ares Macrotechnology to improve infrastructure and public services that each employee enjoys, such as firing ranges for ages six and up!

You're kind of place?

In some ways. But I'm a loyal servant to the Crown and would hate the remainder of Ares brainwash... I mean, edu-tainment. Mom, Apple Pie, Damien Knight wrapped in the Ares Flag (And hopefully pants under that.).

[Zaranthan]

Damien Knight wrapped in the Ares Flag (And hopefully pants under that.).

Hopefully NOT. Yum.

[Wakshaani]

As noted a dozen posts or so back, some people do still use cash. I'd wager that there's always going to be a sall segment of the population that just refuses to give up on the old things in favor of the new ... see also, the USA's ongoing battle to move from dollar bills to dollar coins. Today, debit-credit cards are the norm to such a degree that many don't carry cash, but, if you hit the outlying society, you'll find a group that flat-out doesn't trust banks, so keeps theirmoney on their person at all times, while others who can't get a bank (Due to not being in an area legally) and are thus forced to a cash-only lifestyle. Heck, I run a register myself, and we still get people using checks. Now, while I expect *those* to be dead by 2070, cash is still cash, and you're bound to see it in use.

As a rule of thumb, anywhere 'modern' will handle wirelss transmission and have one register somewhere that can still handle credsticks, while 'cutting edge' areas will be wireless only. Once you get to 'poor' sections, cash will be accepted, while in collapsed areas (Barrens, etc), cash will be the norm, since wireless networks are rare and there are gobs of SINless folks around. Since the middle class are the people least likely to carry cash (Out of the spectrum that a bum could reasonable expect to encounter), they're in for a tough time. (Properly distopian for Shadowrun, mind you) ... that means that most are off the streets in the good parts of town (Lone Star rounds 'em up, roughs 'em up, and kicks 'em out someplace... not even worth the effort of arresting!) but are common in poor areas, where cash still exists.

...

I'm rambling, aren't I?

[sabs]

I think that Script is really common for low income people who HAVE a job, but aren't corporate citizens. Script is also probably how Shadowrunners get paid, or it hell should be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) is traceable. Paper script can be exchanged through many hoops, to end up with nice safe money. It's just easier to 'obfuscate that' and talk about nuyen prices for everything.

[SpellBinder]

Even in SR at 2070 there are places that use script, like the Chicago Containment Zone. And I wouldn't expect script to be something limited to the lower classes and the SINless. Even in present days there are people who will bitch and complain about not having any money, yet pull the latest model smartphone out of their pocket to surf the internet or update their facebook account right there on the spot.

As for shadowrunner pay, that's what credsticks are for. Transfer your pay to a credstick, shift it to another credstick, then back to an account (not necessarily the first one that originally got paid) and you're pretty much set. Won't obliterate a trail entirely, but can make it so bloody hard that most won't try.

[sabs]

Except that it's basically impossible to create a system where credsticks are effectively bearer bonds, and have electronic money where noone has a clue where money X came from and where it went.

The idea that there's electronic money that is economically sound, and yet can be fooled by 2 money transfers across a credstick is so laughable as to break complete verisimilitude.