From India: Leopard messing up armored security guard, ...you could say it was Running Wild Options

[MikeKozar]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/slides...3ef&index=0

This is an incredible picture, and I immediately started thinking of biodrones and paracritter security. Mind you, I've never gotten critters to actually threaten a Shadow team, but watching one maul a corpsec guard or a redshirt NPC might get them worried. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[svenftw]

From that picture it looks like he attacked the only person not wearing a motorcycle helmet. Tactical leopard...

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

From that picture it looks like he attacked the only person not wearing a motorcycle helmet. Tactical leopard...

If Leopars use the same killing tactics than jaguars, then it is all about jumping on top of the prey and smashing its head with the teeths instead of going to the throat and asfixiate it like lions do.

Going for the only human with nothing weird covering the head seems like a good choice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HunterHerne]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/slides...3ef&index=0

This is an incredible picture, and I immediately started thinking of biodrones and paracritter security. Mind you, I've never gotten critters to actually threaten a Shadow team, but watching one maul a corpsec guard or a redshirt NPC might get them worried. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

If you haven't gotten a critter to challenge your PCs, you are either doing it wrong, or they are doing something very right (Keep in mind they don't actually have to harm the PC bodies to challenge them. If the objective is to get in, and get out without raising any alarms, critters may be a severe challenge)

[LostProxy]

If you haven't gotten a critter to challenge your PCs, you are either doing it wrong, or they are doing something very right (Keep in mind they don't actually have to harm the PC bodies to challenge them. If the objective is to get in, and get out without raising any alarms, critters may be a severe challenge)

Plus if they're trained to fight in packs it get's even worse. A decent teamwork bonus on their tests can give them a respectable dice pool and personally I allow the pack Alphas to use Leadership tests. Of course it's different for them then a human but the mechanics are the same. One of the few things I licked about War was that they gave Leadership an actual use mechanically. Combine a pack of cybered dogs and suppressive fire keeping the enemy in place and you have a recipe for a real threat.

Another edge they give is that it's usually cheaper to get a dual natured critter then an awakened metahuman. I accidentally almost killed a projecting mage when he ran into a pack of dual natured hounds. I didn't expect him to roll so badly >.> And no he didn't have a chance to summon a spirit before things went badly for him.

On the main subject. Has anyone really used biodrones? They seem insanely expensive for little gain.

[HunterHerne]

I have had a rival NPC group themed around an "Army" (a rigger with a biodrone for combat, and a couple others for other uses; a mage with 4 bound spirits (force 4, I think); and a combat leader, who just took point and gave advice to the other two), and the biodrone was pretty formidable on it's own. The only PC able to get much of a shot on it was the Gun Bunny with the highest dice pool of that group, in pistols, and soft max (at least natural) reaction and body.

[MikeKozar]

If you haven't gotten a critter to challenge your PCs, you are either doing it wrong, or they are doing something very right (Keep in mind they don't actually have to harm the PC bodies to challenge them. If the objective is to get in, and get out without raising any alarms, critters may be a severe challenge)

I've used a number of critters, including one experimental paracritter biodrone based on the Nyah-gwaheh legend. They get annihilated, for a few simple reasons: They lack ranged attacks, they lack advanced stealth abilities to bring melee into play, they have negligible armor, and they often don't get multiple IPs. Compare the threat rating of a critter to a typical corp thug with an MP5 and armor jacket and there's no comparison - when the PCs are ready for corporate security, animals just aren't in the fight. Even the paracritters from the main book are a joke at my table - most of them bring Natural Weapon 5P AP0 (or worse). They're slightly more intimidating then a go-ganger with a pool cue, which is to say laughable.

This is just my experience, and it sounds like you have gotten critters to work at your table. Care to elaborate on some of the encounters?

[LostProxy]

I got them to work by not sending them by themselves, taking advantage of the teamwork bonus when they're trained to fight in a pack/friends in melee bonus, and a liberal use of augmentations.

Agility 3(5) using muscle replacement + Unarmed 3 + Friends in melee bonus (usually 3) + Pack bonus (also usually 3) = 14 dice in melee with the augmented attack dogs getting in range with assistance from suppressive fire by security guards/hardwired turrets. Most of the time the dogs weren't attacking to cause damage but to force the PCs out of cover so they could be shot.

I also usually boost skills and or stats here and there to represent better trained dogs. But as you can see I usually don't have to. In fact the only skill I ever boosted was infiltration.

[Neko Asakami]

@LostProxy: Nice tactics, quite impressive. I'm going to be sending my players to Bogota for a bit and the animals just got a bit more threatening.

[HunterHerne]

I've used a number of critters, including one experimental paracritter biodrone based on the Nyah-gwaheh legend. They get annihilated, for a few simple reasons: They lack ranged attacks, they lack advanced stealth abilities to bring melee into play, they have negligible armor, and they often don't get multiple IPs. Compare the threat rating of a critter to a typical corp thug with an MP5 and armor jacket and there's no comparison - when the PCs are ready for corporate security, animals just aren't in the fight. Even the paracritters from the main book are a joke at my table - most of them bring Natural Weapon 5P AP0 (or worse). They're slightly more intimidating then a go-ganger with a pool cue, which is to say laughable.

This is just my experience, and it sounds like you have gotten critters to work at your table. Care to elaborate on some of the encounters?

Sure. The point I was making is that critters don't need to be used in combat to make them a worthwhile challenge, they just need to take the players out of their comfort zone. I used a Gabriel hound one time to do that (I won't lie, most of the effective critters were paranormal). The PC made short work of the creature once combat came up, but he had serious doubt about actually attacking it in the first place since he wasn't sure if it was just a bum, or not.

As far as combat goes, I had a Tamanous agent, an adept hired to go around and check things out at a clinic they were connected to, that used a Basilisk to slow down opposition and stone skin them. Once the characters were completely stone skinned, he'd let them suffocate, and break the shell to get at the useful interior parts. Critters can be effective in combat, but not on their own. You need to use numbers or superior training rules to your advantage in those cases.

[LostProxy]

@LostProxy: Nice tactics, quite impressive. I'm going to be sending my players to Bogota for a bit and the animals just got a bit more threatening.

Thank you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) My players thought the same. They told me until that moment they didn't realize what a pain attack dogs could be. Especially when some of the dogs had auto injectors that would drug the PCs through bite wounds that did physical damage. Took a second for them to realize why they were getting woozy.

[MikeKozar]

Thank you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) My players thought the same. They told me until that moment they didn't realize what a pain attack dogs could be. Especially when some of the dogs had auto injectors that would drug the PCs through bite wounds that did physical damage. Took a second for them to realize why they were getting woozy.

That's halfway brilliant, right there. Venomous attack dogs is a great idea - especially if you could engineer them to be immune to a toxin, and then make it contact-vector in their saliva. If they so much as slobber on you, you'll be making checks.

The one thing I don't get about LostProxy's plan is that even with a 13 dice pool in melee, you've still got the same issues as a melee Shadowrunner - namely attacking half as often as a gunslinger, giving your target bonus dodge dice they don't get vs firearms, and having to rush at guys with 3 IPs while they unload at you. Also, as mentioned above, no armor to speak of. With a big enough pack and fire support, I can see it being an interesting encounter, but only in a combined-force encounter where they're expendable and supporting gunmen. Whenever I've tried to use critters that were literally Running Wild, it was a slaughter.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

That's halfway brilliant, right there. Venomous attack dogs is a great idea - especially if you could engineer them to be immune to a toxin, and then make it contact-vector in their saliva. If they so much as slobber on you, you'll be making checks.

Dogs who shoot bees when they bark are more awesome (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Sharks with Lazers!
Also, there is a REASON why Cats don't have natural enemies . .

[HunterHerne]

That's halfway brilliant, right there. Venomous attack dogs is a great idea - especially if you could engineer them to be immune to a toxin, and then make it contact-vector in their saliva. If they so much as slobber on you, you'll be making checks.

The one thing I don't get about LostProxy's plan is that even with a 13 dice pool in melee, you've still got the same issues as a melee Shadowrunner - namely attacking half as often as a gunslinger, giving your target bonus dodge dice they don't get vs firearms, and having to rush at guys with 3 IPs while they unload at you. Also, as mentioned above, no armor to speak of. With a big enough pack and fire support, I can see it being an interesting encounter, but only in a combined-force encounter where they're expendable and supporting gunmen. Whenever I've tried to use critters that were literally Running Wild, it was a slaughter.

Yeah. Wild animals are a lot harder to make an interesting encounter of. I've used barding on my animals as well, though it does cost more to fit the animal.

In the case of wild animals, I would play up the use of cover and stealth tactics. A wolf pack in a forest isn't going to rush the group of runners, though they may shadow them for a while, and strike at anyone who strays from the group. The woods would also lend penalties to perception checks to pinpoint (anywhere from -2 for lighter patches, to -6 for growth that makes characters effectively blind after a few meters) Since Wolves have 2 IPs, used this way, they can make an interesting challenge.

[LostProxy]

That's halfway brilliant, right there. Venomous attack dogs is a great idea - especially if you could engineer them to be immune to a toxin, and then make it contact-vector in their saliva. If they so much as slobber on you, you'll be making checks.

The one thing I don't get about LostProxy's plan is that even with a 13 dice pool in melee, you've still got the same issues as a melee Shadowrunner - namely attacking half as often as a gunslinger, giving your target bonus dodge dice they don't get vs firearms, and having to rush at guys with 3 IPs while they unload at you. Also, as mentioned above, no armor to speak of. With a big enough pack and fire support, I can see it being an interesting encounter, but only in a combined-force encounter where they're expendable and supporting gunmen. Whenever I've tried to use critters that were literally Running Wild, it was a slaughter.

They weren't attacking to cause damage. Mainly they were attacking to force them from cover. That made them only getting one hit negligible because that one hit was followed by poison that slowed the PCs down and bullets from the waiting guards. But like you said big packs and fire support are the main way to get them to work in most combat scenarios. As for armor why can't they have armor? There are kevlar vests for dogs today. Combine that with orthoskin and they will have at least 12 dice to soak damage with.

For the record in my scenario they did have doggie kevlar and orthoskin. They were heavily cybered canines like any mundane runner would be. But they were definitely cost effective. No insurance, no salary, and thanks to decent doggie vests and some implanted injectors full of meds survivable enough to last more then one encounter.